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Subject: Prevent Action - Opinions wanted rss

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simon cogan
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This is being discussed on another thread but I thought I'd bring it out here for more exposure.

This is a rule that I intend to introduce officially later in the 'Companion 2' expansion.

The proposed Prevent Goal Action will be an 'after Goal is known' Action and is to give a bit more variety to adventures. It will do this by linking to Goal types.

Each Goal will now have 1 of 9 types - Invasion, Political, Experiments etc.Some Goals will be 2 types - Apocalypse/Invasion etc

Thus each Prevent Goal Action will have a 2D6 Action table as usual with bonuses for certain Traits or Qualities - again as usual.

So different adventures that have different goals will now have a bit more variety as a 'different' Prevent Actions become available.

Sound good so far?

Okay, here's my dilemma:

We can make it very simple and have simple table. Or we can be slightly more open and give a 10+ result as 'success', then allow a player to choose between 3 options dependant on what he wants to do.

Example: Getting 10+ on the Prevent Invasion Goal Table could mean that the 3 options are to warn authorities (gaining troops), build a homing beacon deactivator device (an engineering roll to gain +2DM) or pick up a microphone and bluff your way out (Defeat the Enemy if you have Gloating and Bravery 25)!

Which do people want to see?

Although the second seems more flexible and allows player choice, how can we then have 'generic' bonuses and bad results on the Action table and then specific good results?

Example: Why get bonuses on the Action for Bureaucrats and leaders when I end up building a gadget?

Or am I overthinking it and we don't need the Action at all

Example: Building a homing beacon gizmo - isn't that just Research??

I really need some opinions here....
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Nate K
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I really like the idea of Prevent Goal actions, and look forward to seeing them. I would prefer they be kept simple, though; the game is complicated enough as it is, adding in 9 more complex actions, even in an expansion, is a lot to swallow. The simpler, the better, in this situation.
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David Bate
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I do like the ideas that add to the story telling aspect of the game.

But I do think that there is developing a need for simple and advanced versions. Two rulesbooks? More work for Simon?

An introductionary version would have most if not all of the current core options, while the advanced version would give more options and advance gameplay. FanG works that way as does ME:TW CCG. I'm not too fussed if there is a need to streamline the basic rules a bit.

This way everyone can have their Jammie-Dodger and eat it. The simple rules can draw in new players whilst the advanced rules could add more depth of play for hard-core Whoplayers.

Are we talking a 3rd regeneration of DWSSG?
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David Bate
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Kind of reminds me of the old BP option based on the type of towns/ruins/castles etc you stayed in.

I like the Goal types idea. I think that would work with both the current simple and advanced rule systems (just ignore the "type" for basic rules etc). Anymore examples of the kind of things to expect?
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simon cogan
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It WON'T be a reworking of the rules, but form an 'appendix' if you like - just like the new Actions in 'The Companion' or those like Seek Help at the back of the rules.

If you want to use it, fine. if you want to play a more basic game first - fine too.

As you say, just ignore the Goal 'type' as flavour text if not using it.

9 types in all - apocalypse, Capture, Experiments, Invasion, Meddling, Profit, Political, Quest, Resurrection.

the Goals all fit into these 9 categories and there's a nice spread.

First question (and see the other thread -http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/783896/options-after-goa...

for initial work)

What Traits give bonuses on each??

Second question: What are typical 'bad' and 'good' results for each type?
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Nate K
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I do think it will be thematically important to give each Prevent Goal actions some various based on the gravity of the goal.

Prevent Invasion or Prevent Apocalypse, for example, should be high risk, high reward. If you fail, you fail badly. But if you succeed, the results are spectacular!

Prevent Profit or Prevent Political, on the other hand, are not quite as severe. Therefore, failing should not be as big of a deal, but succeeding should not mean automatic success, either.

.02geekgold
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Chris Wilcoxon
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dragoncymru wrote:
9 types in all - apocalypse, Capture, Experiments, Invasion, Meddling, Profit, Political, Quest, Resurrection.

the Goals all fit into these 9 categories and there's a nice spread.

First question (and see the other thread -http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/783896/options-after-goa... for initial work)

What Traits give bonuses on each??

Second question: What are typical 'bad' and 'good' results for each type?


Apocalypse- Bad: your efforts are detected and the enemy moves bases -DM or autolose. Good: Depends on what manner you want the event to take: The authorities become aware of the danger and attach soldiers to you, or open research facilities to you. Trait bonuses: demolition or engineering if it's a doomsday machine, poison/medicine/science if it's a plague or the like

Capture- Depends on who is the target. If the Doctor is targeted: Bad: e060-Marked for execution, companions are also captured, maybe reduce turns available. Good: Word reaches friends of the Doctor gain extra allies. Bonus: Charisma or tracking (being aware of his tracks increases his awareness of others)
If someone else is the target then Bad: e002b or e060 with more frequent Enemy enounters. Good: Again, probably extra allies/free character roll, police or friends of victim, with bonus to Domination/Tracking and victim's bravery.

Experiments- Bad: A hint or clue gets destroyed -DM, Enemy gains extra minions, a Companion is wounded. Good: Enemy is wounded, minions are wiped out, +DM. Trait bonus: Brains, Computer, Science or Medicine.

Invasion- Bad: Extra troops land (more Minions), the authorities are in cahoots (any allied Troops are lost, future encounters with officialdom risks capture). Good: Landing site is blocked, authorities are alerted and provide extra support, worldwide outcry increases allies. Bonus: Gloating, Demolition, Marksman, Pilot, Brawn, UNIT.

Meddling- Bad: Enemy gains Quality bonus, history is rewritten lose allies/Companion, paradox: extra minions or -DM. Good: Reunion- gain ally/Companion, +DM, TARDIS damage repaired. Bonus: TARDIS, History, Aware

Profit- Most of the time on the show, profit is secondary to something else, usually invasion or apocalypse. Bad: Unintended consequences- device goes out of control and wounds allies/Companions, ally/Companion has to leave to care for family. Good: ally becomes Companion due to windfall, authorities reward the Doctor- gain artifact, creature is freed and befriends the Doctor as thanks. Bonus: Charisma, Computers, UNIT

Political- Again, this is usually secondary. Bad: Doctor loses Bureaucracy allies/troops, enemy gains minions from authorities, Doctor/Companions are captured, next adventure has same enemy in different location with invasion goal. Good: Outraged citizens ally with Doctor, official resources are made available (UNIT troops or research facilities), next adventure is a vacation. Bonus: Computers, Charisma, History, UNIT

Quest- Bad: The next adventure has the same enemy, but more powerful, history is altered, a more powerful enemy makes an appearance. Good: Extra equipment, more friends for the Doctor. Bonus: Charisma, Tracking, Gloating

Resurrection- Bad: Cthulu rises (enemy becomes something much more difficult), enemy gains minions. Good: Minions switch sides, Doctor discovers a crucial bit of material, slip something into the liquid medium to mess up results. Bonus: History, Charisma, Tracking

Sorry for the length, hopefully this helps with the brainstorming and was somewhat coherent.

Good night Gracie
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simon cogan
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Some really great ideas there Chris - thanks so much

I'm going to take out the Charisma bonuses for a lot of them - it makes it far too easy!
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Piotr
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I'll probably try to come up with something in a few days, but I'd say that for the bonuses there could be some less common traits (if they'll fit, of course), like for instance already suggested TARDIS trait for Meddling Goals, it would make some traits more useful, there are some traits that I never really bother having, so it would be good to give them some more uses. This way Prevent Actions would also be harder, so even if they would have great results like possibility of automatic win or +2DM, they wouldn't be so easy to achieve and we would have to think each action through - is it better to try to quickly prevent the enemy's goal, or maybe go for a bit safer way with researching or planning.
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simon cogan
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Lord of the Void wrote:
I'll probably try to come up with something in a few days, but I'd say that for the bonuses there could be some less common traits (if they'll fit, of course), like for instance already suggested TARDIS trait for Meddling Goals, it would make some traits more useful, there are some traits that I never really bother having, so it would be good to give them some more uses. This way Prevent Actions would also be harder, so even if they would have great results like possibility of automatic win or +2DM, they wouldn't be so easy to achieve and we would have to think each action through - is it better to try to quickly prevent the enemy's goal, or maybe go for a bit safer way with researching or planning.


Yes - absolutely my thinking too.

It's great that we can all work together to make the game better isn't it?
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Chris Wilcoxon
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dragoncymru wrote:
Some really great ideas there Chris - thanks so much

I'm going to take out the Charisma bonuses for a lot of them - it makes it far too easy!


Glad you liked it Simon. This wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list (although it was exhausting) just something to get the creative juices going.

I wasn't thinking about the difficulty, just trying to be thematic.
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simon cogan
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The work begins...

Apocalypse: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 if 20 Bravery, +1 per 2 Running and +1 if you can Oppose. If you roll natural doubles, have an automatic Enemy encounter this Turn.

2-4: It’s too late! You lose the Adventure. All TARDIS Characters must make a Running 8 roll (-2 if a Victim) to reach the TARDIS or are killed.
5: Is there any way out – see e287.
6: Events slipping out of control – take a -1DM penalty
7: Time is running out – advance the Turn number by 1.
8: No progress – no effect.
9: There could be a way – add +1 to the die roll if you choose to Prevent next Turn.
10: Could this be the answer – gain +1DM.
11: A way is found – roll 1D6: 1-3: e126; 4-6: e128.
12+: It’s over – if you can Oppose, you have Defeated the Enemy. If not, gain +2DM.

thoughts?
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Chris Wilcoxon
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dragoncymru wrote:
The work begins...

Apocalypse: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 if 20 Bravery, +1 per 2 Running and +1 if you can Oppose. If you roll natural doubles, have an automatic Enemy encounter this Turn.

2-4: It’s too late! You lose the Adventure. All TARDIS Characters must make a Running 8 roll (-2 if a Victim) to reach the TARDIS or are killed.
5: Is there any way out – see e287.
6: Events slipping out of control – take a -1DM penalty
7: Time is running out – advance the Turn number by 1.
8: No progress – no effect.
9: There could be a way – add +1 to the die roll if you choose to Prevent next Turn.
10: Could this be the answer – gain +1DM.
11: A way is found – roll 1D6: 1-3: e126; 4-6: e128.
12+: It’s over – if you can Oppose, you have Defeated the Enemy. If not, gain +2DM.

thoughts?


My first thought is I never have anywhere near 20 bravery, 10 yes. Maybe make it 15 bravery for bonus?

I like the desperate run for the TARDIS. Over all it looks good to me, except for my comment re:Bravery.
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simon cogan
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20 Bravery isn't too hard - Doctor plus 2 or 3 Characters.

Here's Capture:

Capture: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 if 25 Brains, +1 per Tracking and +1 if you can Oppose (max +3). If you roll natural doubles, have an automatic Enemy encounter this Turn.
2-3: You are captured by the Enemy – see e060.
4: You are captured by the Enemy – see e061
5: Companion in trouble – see e002.
6: False leads – Take a -1DM
7: Nothing to go on – no effect.
8: Clues – add +1 to the die roll if you choose to Prevent next Turn.
9: Find a trail – gain a +1DM.
10: Find Enemy base – see e144 but only have Enemy encounter if you do not have Thief.
11: Release captives – rescue any captured Characters and gain +1DM.
12+: Bait and Lure – Have Enemy encounter as if you can Oppose. All Thief Characters are +2 to Qualities.
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simon cogan
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On a roll...

Experiments: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 per Engineering, Medicine, Science (choose 1 Trait only – max +3) and add +1 if you can Oppose. If you roll natural doubles, a random Character with chosen Trait is Wounded.
2-3: Accidentally discover exactly what the Enemy was looking for – take a -2DM.
4: Blind Alley – a Character with chosen Trait loses this Trait until the end of the Adventure.
5: Interrupted by the Enemy – have an Enemy encounter.
6: Dead End – You may not attempt this Prevent Action or a Research Action with this Trait
7: Fruitless experiments – no result.
8: Making progress - add +1 to the die roll if you choose to Prevent next Turn.
9: Interesting discovery – gain a +1DM
10-11: Important research – gain +2 to any Research Action using chosen Trait
12: Breakthrough – see e083.
13+: Eureka – if you can Oppose then you destroy the Enemy experiments and Defeat them. If you cannot Oppose, gain +2DM.
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Piotr
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Some good ideas here, I like them, but my concern is that we'd need to watch out for too much similarities with other actions, there are quite a few of them already

I liked some of the ideas that Johnny W posted in the other thread, like for instance choosing on which encounter matrix table to roll (it could give us possibility of some good encounters late in the game, when they are so rare) or possibly giving a player an additional turn (I see that you used the opposite - losing one turn) - those two caught my attention.

Also I think that, given that these actions are more, let's say, "advanced", we could try to think of some results outside the box, of course I understand your need both to not make the game too complicated and to keep it balanced, but I believe these Prevent actions may be a good way to introduce some different results tied to specific goals, something like the results from e083 Breakthrough - of course I do realise that it's not so easy, so I won't just whine but rather maybe try to come up with some actual results

Finally, in those three examples we have Medicine, Science, Engineering (which make Prevent Experiments quite easy, even considering the fact that Defeat is achieved on 13+), Running, Tracking - maybe we could change it somehow, for instance some use for Poison in Experiments (it seems to fit) or Pilot in Apocalypse - even in exchange for logical explanation, I'm not saying add Gloating to Prevent Apocalypse, but it doesn't have to always be perfectly logical - Doctor himself isn't
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simon cogan
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Okay - understood.

I quite like the idea of 'buying time' with getting an extra Turn.

Could use that with Meddling....? Any other one? Political perhaps? Quest or Resurrection?

If you want to model some Action tables, feel free to get your hands dirty!
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simon cogan
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Invasion table (second go):

Invasion: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 per Bureaucrat, +1 per 3 Troop, +1 per UNIT Character without Troop (Present or Post Modern Earth only) and +1 if you can Oppose. If you roll natural doubles, increase Brawn of all Enemies (including Minions) by +1 (cumulative).
2-3: Alien spacecraft arrives – see e160.
4: Reinforcements – add +2 to the number of Enemy Troops in an Enemy encounter.
5-6: Engage the Enemy – have an Enemy encounter.
7: Stalemate – no result.
8: Tactical maneuvering – add +1 to the dice roll if you choose a Prevent Action next Turn.
9: Find tactical error in Enemy plans – gain a +1DM
10: Opportunity arises – gain +2 to Seek Help or Conflict Actions for the Adventure
11: Find alien transmitter – see e034.
12+: Take a stand – if you can Oppose and have either 25 Brawn or 25 Bravery and you can make a Gloating 9 roll, then the Enemy is Defeated. If not, gain a +1DM.
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simon cogan
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Meddling:

Meddling: If you know the Goal. Roll 2D6 and add +1 per TARDIS, +1 per 2 Aware and +1 if per 2 History (if on Earth in Modern Era or earlier). If you roll doubles, Action counts as a Temporal event.
2-3: Your actions have caused a time rift to open – see e107.
4: Temporal disturbance – see e101.
5: Disturb Enemy plans – have an Enemy encounter.
6: The anomaly grows – if facing a Temporal Enemy they have +1 to all Qualities (cumulative). If not, then take a -1DM penalty.
7: Time passes – no result
8: Become aware of disturbance – add +1 to dice roll if you choose a Prevent Action next Turn.
9: Sensitive to temporal change – gain a +1DM.
10: Buying Time – Reduce the Turn number by 1D3 Turns.
11: Wonderful Girl – If inside the TARDIS and you can make a TARDIS 9 roll then you can Defeat a Temporal Enemy. Otherwise, gain a +1DM
12+: Lord of Time – If you can Oppose and have 25 Brains and either are inside the TARDIS or have 2 Aware, you have Defeated the Enemy. Otherwise, gain a +1DM.
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simon cogan
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Political: If you know the Goal. May not choose this Action in a Wilderness. Roll 2D6 and add +1 per Bureaucrat, +1 per 3 Charisma and add +1 if you can Oppose (max +3). If you roll natural doubles, further Prevent Actions in this Adventure have a -1 (cumulative) penalty.
2-3: Enrage Enemy – Have an Enemy encounter
4: Locked up – see e059.
5: Outmaneuvered – take a -1DM penalty
6-7: Red Tape – 1 random Bureaucrat cannot take any Action next Turn.
8: Political machinations – add +1 to dice roll if you choose a Prevent Action next Turn.
9: Making progress – gain a +1DM.
10: Discover useful Ally – roll for a Character event with +2 to any Talk roll.
11: Powers of Persuasion – roll immediately for Seek Help with +3 to the roll
12+: Checkmate – If you can Oppose and have either Domination or Gloating then you have Defeated a Human Enemy. Otherwise gain a +1DM
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Piotr
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They look quite good. I have a lot of work now but I hope to find some time and check them out more carefully, compare them to existing post-goal actions and maybe suggest some changes or try to come up with some tables myself. But I think it is going in a good direction.
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simon cogan
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Glad you like them and I look forward to your feedback.

The remaining 3 Prevent Actions plus 'Desperate Venture' and 'Study' (a hangover from last year) will be done shortly.
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Piotr
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I didn't know about Study, looking forward to it. As for Desperate Venture, most of these Prevent Actions seem to give possible chance of simply defeating the enemy without having to Oppose, so it may seem quite similar to the idea of Desperate Venture (at least in theory) in that we can Defeat without Opposing. I'm looking forward to see what you'll come up with, but Desperate Venture needs to be really "desperate" - I mean, the action that we wouldn't normally consider, only in extreme cases. I think that we should maybe pay for this action, like for instance "Pay 2 Luck to perform this Action. You may pay more Luck and add +1 to the roll for each Luck point you spent above the required 2" or something like that? Or even apart from that add a requirement like "The Doctor has to have at least 5 Luck to perform this Action" so that only really lucky Doctor could pull this off?
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simon cogan
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What about this:

Desperate Venture: If you know the Goal and spend 2 Luck points. Roll 2D6 and add +1 per Luck point spent. You may not use Luck points to re-roll this Action.
2-6: Your desperate venture fails – you are killed and the game is over.
7-8: Your desperate venture succeeds, but only at the cost of your Time Lord body – you Defeat the Enemy but must regenerate.
9: Your desperate attempt only succeeds with the bravery of a loyal Companion – random (Victim if possible) Companion is killed, you lose 2 Luck points but Defeat the Enemy. If you have no Companion, see result 7-8.
10: Your desperate venture is only partially successful - gain +1DM.
11: Your desperate gamble almost pays off – gain enough DM so that you can now Oppose.
12+: Your desperate gamble to Defeat the Enemy succeeds.
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simon cogan
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Hot off the press:

Study at Museum: If at a Museum before any Danger, Enemy or Plot events. Roll 2D6 and add choose either +1 per Science or +1 per History (max +3).
2-3: It’s stiflingly dull – lose 2 Luck points or your chosen Trait.
4: Nothing to see here – lose 1 Luck point. You may not Study again in this Adventure.
5: Your studies alert the Museum authorities – see e050.
6: Boring – If you have any Companion that does not have your chosen Trait then they wander off and become Separated.
7: Interesting stuff – but no extra result
8: Absorbing topic – add +1 to dice roll if you choose a Study Action next Turn.
9: Fascinating – gain 1 Luck point
10: Interesting discovery – gain +1DM.
11: Very interesting discovery – roll 1D6: 1-2: e131; 3-4: e132; 5-6: e268.
12+: Amazing knowledge – you may increase your chosen Trait for half the normal Luck point cost (round up) at the end of this Adventure.
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