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BattleCON: War of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Luc VS Vanaah: A non balanced game? rss

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Fredericus Rex
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On Monday I played with a very skilled player for 9 hour nonstop battlecon.
4 hours Vanaah vs Luc. And there was NO chance for vanaah. The best she could do was a 12 - 0 loss. The worst where 2 perfects for Luc.
Stuff like chronoflash (2 damage for sure exapt dash) and fusionshot where just deadly.
Vanaah couldn't out step or outpriorities Luc.

Can someone prove me wrong?
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Moosey
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Did both of you play each char vs. the other?

Funny you should say that, my first game ever was this matchup. I was Vanaah, vs my non-board-gamer (but video gamer) friend playing Luc. He was creaming me at first. But he wasn't just playing any old card and stomping me, he really was playing the perfect card at the perfect time. But honestly, it felt a bit like dumb luck. Some smart intentional moves, but a strong sprinkling of dumb luck too. Mid game I came back though, and started predicting what he would do. I shredded him down to 1-5 health, but it wasn't enough to combat the heavy damage he did to me early game. He did indeed claim victory that day.
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Brad Talton
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It's very possible that you have an uphill match, but I doubt highly its unwinnable. Luc is a character that has tricks to beat your moves, while Vanaah is a brute-force type character. It's very easy for Luc to win a perfect if he can use the right trick to match Vanaah's assault.

To use the same analogy as another thread, Vanaah is a "question character" and Luc is an "answer character". Vanaah's question is typically "I'm going to hit range 1~3 at priority 6 for 7 damage, what are you going to do?" and Luc might answer "I'll use Eternal to soak your damage, then swing back with strike!" The trouble with answers is that each "answer" usually only applies to one or two "questions". If Vanaah decides to use something else, say a Glorious Shot, Luc's strike is going to miss.

In a match like this, the trick is to think about your best move first, then your opponent's best counter, then come up with a counter-counter. (Or if he's really crafty, a counter-counter-counter-counter, which is often just the original best move again).

Chronoflash w/ +2 priority is a guarantee except against your reaping dash, but at what cost? You lose 2 life and Luc is shedding tokens to stand next to you (which is a pretty high risk proposition) AND giving up his ability to stop your attacks (flash) AND his ability to break your stun guard (chrono).

Without flash, Luc has absolutely no way to stop your vengeance attacks or your strikes, and only 1 attack that can break your scythe's stun guard (Chrono [something] or [strike]). With Reaping Drive + Divine rush, you'll easily go first unless he throws Fusion and a token and a high priority base. If you do reaping scythe instead, it doesn't matter if he uses Fusion or not, since it can't reach the power required to break your higher-damage attack except with a strike.

A Fusion Shot with boosted speed (6) is just as easily beaten by your Reaping Drive + DR (7), and even if it hits, a Vengeance Shot with DR (priority 4, 7 power) leaves you 2 life on top (more if you don't hit the wall).

Scythe beats both feinting and burst, and any scythe except Vengeance beats a Feinting Burst. Your superior range advantage trumps Luc's. If you Burst, he has no recourse unless he predicted with a drive or flash, and with your Vengeance Burst, even a Shot is a losing trade for him. Judgment Burst can prevent him from stepping in on you, which is an almost guaranteed miss for a melee-only like Luc.

It seems to me that at first glance] Vanaah has the tools she needs to win, if you just predict the opponent correctly. Aside from Chronoflash (where Vanaah can still dash to come out on top by leaving Luc out of two of his power cards), every other exchange appears to be winnable.

Perhaps if you post a few examples of the moves that are killing you, others will have some more targeted advice.
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Fredericus Rex
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Yes we changed the characters. Like I said we played for 4 hours just this matchup, because normaly it is a very balanced game. But this match up was so inbalanced, that we just tried to prove ourselfs wrong. Without succses.

We play maybe this weekend again, I will write up then like the game went.

Problems Vanaah has against Luc:
Everytime Vanaah uses her DR token, then Luc can easily spend a Timetoken to cancel the Prioritybonus.
Vengeance and Glorious are really bad. If they clash you have a huge problem.

Luc just needs his timetokens for the +2 Prioritybonus. We never used the teleport and just one or two times the stun ability.
Eternal+base with stunguard is also hard to break through for Vanaah, when she used her token.

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Nate K
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Zaphikiel wrote:
Everytime Vanaah uses her DR token, then Luc can easily spend a Timetoken to cancel the Prioritybonus.



What if you're just going for a Power boost? You can combine DR with, say, Shot to force Luc to waste a Time token when his Priority was going to beat you anyway, then hit him for a bit of extra damage thanks to Stun Guard and a careful use of movement and range.
 
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Moosey
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I figured you did both use each others characters, just making sure.

After the match, I did feel I could take him if we did a re-match. But I had to really pay attention.

The example of Luc anteing in response to an ante is why we did blind ante bidding. Since I only had an ante available some of the time, I would hold it out secretly in my hand, then Luc would choose his ante, then I'd reveal mine. Took the problem of counter-ante out of the equation.

I don't mind if there are a few uneven matches in the game. I am much happier that there are so many character options. It also makes for a nice balancing mechanic if you want to show a new friend the game. Take someone you know is bad against them. In my opinion, 90% good match up rate is pretty amazing for this many characters. I don't know what BattleCon is % wise, but I feel it's at least that much.
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Brad Talton
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I'm curious to hear how it goes.

If you feel like doing something novel, you can try Vanaah's alternate Judgment ability:

"Start of Beat: An opponent within range of this attack cannot move or be moved during this beat".

I'm curious to see if this has significant impact, as it's one of the tweaks that she gets in the app version of the game.
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Moosey
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Kyokai wrote:
Vanaah's alternate Judgment ability.


The core concept is the same, but it may execute much differently in some situations. Who knows.

That brings up an interesting idea. Maybe you've thought of it, but I'll spit it out anyways.

ALTERNATE TRAINING (think deck building like Summoner Wars):
Sell packs of character cards or base cards (or a box of all alt cards) that may a-la-carte replace core cards. Must replace it's paired card. Core function is the same.

EX 1: yellow base options
All 0 damage evade themed cards (but you may only have one).
Dodge
Evade
Sidestep

EX 2: blue styles for Kehrolyn
All defensive based (but you may only have one).
Exoskeleton (2 soak, immobile)
Quills (attacker looses life = to damage dealt)
Studs (stun immune)
Shell (can't move herself, max range 1, soak 6)

This is just an idea brainstorm basically. Would add some flavor and more combo building potential for sure. But I can see the balance being a nightmare to handle. Then we have to also ask ourselves if we would prefer Brad be spending his time designing alternate styles/bases, or designing additional characters. And, well, as neat as this idea is, I'd rather he be spending his time designing additional characters.

Anyways, just fun to think of.
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Brad Talton
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MooseyFate wrote:
And, well, as neat as this idea is, I'd rather he be spending his time designing additional characters.


It does sound pretty cool though, and I'm looking for some alternate game modes to add in for Devastation of Indines...
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Mathue Faulkner
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I don't really have any substantial to add to the conversation, but I've actually only played the game once and it just happened to be this match up. I played Vanaah and my friend played Luc. I landed something crazy right off the bat that did an insane amount of damage, and it was really all uphill from there for Luc. While he did slowly whittle away at my life, I was able to hang on for the win....basically trying to be as unpredictable as possible.

Of course, neither of us knew what we were doing....so there isn't necessarily anything to learn.

Edit: Just recalled that we played a 3-fight match (not sure if this is typical or not). As I recall, he took round 2, and then I squeaked out a win in round 3. I can't remember much about the strategy, other than my entire goal was to be unpredictable and strike hard when I did...
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Sascha Parsa
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I played that matchup with him. And that was before Judgement got buffed and Flash got toned down quite a bit.
By now this is a completely different matchup.
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Sascha Parsa
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I don't really see the cons of the old flash. With a base priority of 6 it's really hard to stun him. And the mobility is supreme compared to a start of beat advance 1 movement.
I am generally not a fan of Start of Beat advances. Before Activating advances guarantee that you stick to your target, while a Burst can thwart your plans completely with a Start of Beat advance.
 
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Nerds call me
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There was no con with old Flash, which is why it was revised.
 
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Sascha Parsa
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Afaik the victim of Judgement can't "move", "advance" or "retreat". Everything else should work. That includes both players pulling and pushing.

And Luc and get priority 9 with Chrono Flash just as easily.

Rule of thumb for old Luc against old Vanaah: "Does she ante? Then so do I."
 
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