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Subject: Men and Gaming? rss

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Stephen Keller
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First off, I know that it's ill-advised to ask a question like this / talk about a subject such as this as it goes against the way the world treats equality and such. I'm rolling the dice on a person-by-person basis here and am just as likely to get receptive readers as I am to getting requests that I jump off a cliff. Here it goes anyways, feel absolutely free to criticize me:

Why on earth is there a specific category in our forums called 'Women and Gaming'? It 's always struck me as kind of...I don't know the word... Weird? Strange? Not Right? Nope, none of those are the right words. I'll settle on abnormal. Whenever I see a forum title on the front page that says something like "Ladies! What games did you play this weekend" it's always struck me as exclusionary. I've occasionally peeked into these seemingly forbidden forum posts and have also occasionally wanted to post. Never have because it felt like I'd be intruding or something like that.

As time has gone on it's gotten me thinking. Louder and louder the more I notice it - can't stop my brain from giving me stupid thoughts unfortunately. Why isn't there a category labelled 'Men and Gaming'?

Really, that unsettles me just as much as the 'Women and Gaming' but at least there would be clear boundaries where women could post women stuff and men could post men stuff. Or could men post about women in the Woman and Gaming section and could women post about men in the Men and Gaming section. Meh...we could just cross post like crazy and pretend that we're all just a bunch of hobbyists who are sharing the same site.

Or, are we just out right saying that BGG is a home for men and that we need a special place for woman stuff. If that's the case then I apologize for asking stupid questions.
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Matt Davis
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As I understand it, the Women and Gaming forum is not meant to be exclusionary or "only for women" or any such nonsense. (I think) It's just meant to be a place where people can talk about issues that arise for them while keeping the perspective of women in the hobby in mind. How it's actually being used, I have no idea. But if you're looking for a forum that is frequented mostly by men and contains a largely male perspective, well...it's called the rest of the site.
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Ray Stantz
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Why do you care that there is a forum for women and gaming?
It is no big deal in my eyes.
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J
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Really? This horse has been beat to death and then pounded into a patch of smoldering leather very recently. Please feel free to review the multiple threads on this very subject. One of them is at least 18 pages long.
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Lynette
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First Jarred is correct there are like a billion words already written on this, it would have been nice if you read them before kicking this hornets nest... AGAIN.

However since you have I want to answer one specific part...


Synnical77 wrote:
Whenever I see a forum title on the front page that says something like "Ladies! What games did you play this weekend" it's always struck me as exclusionary.


It is meant to be BEACON, rather than exclusionary. Women's thoughts, views, posts get literally downed out here because of the huge VOLUME of posts.

Many of us (but not all, many BGG women never use the women's forum) like to find each other and have what is for us a more concentrated collection of women's input.

It is also a place we are less likely to run into the more sexist comments that are often peppered throughout the rest of the site.

The Forum itself is certainly not restricted to women. We have several males who post somewhat routinely and many threads are meant to be gender neutral in posting input but are topical about "women in gaming".

However some threads... usually the ones that start with "Ladies" etc... are meant to be specific calls that encourage women to contribute in those threads.

They are not meant to be specifically exclusionary and men often make comments in these thread about what the women post they are playing. However if 500 men dumped in their gaming input for the last weekend, it would sort of defeat the purpose. So while they are not excluded from making comments about what the women are playing, or even their opinions on the games the women played... it would be a courtesy to not just jump in and list the games you played... UNLESS you are listing the games you played with your wife/daughter/mother and telling us how THEY reacted to those games. When men add those comments to those threads they are appreciated as part of the staying within the spirit of the thread intent. Which is to get to chat about what other women are currently interested in playing.

Does that make sense?


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jood shine
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thanks for this lynette - agree with all you said..phew its such a stale topic by now !
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Chris Stanton
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I'm another for whom the 'Women & Gaming' forum doesn't sit properly & I wonder why, if we have that, we don't have a 'Men & Gaming'.
I see too much racism & sexism going on but that is apparently okay as it 'attempts to redress the balance' or is 'tongue in cheek' or some other such excuse. Doesn't change what it is.

I thought we were all just gamers here
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Lynette
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Toc13 wrote:
I'm another for whom the 'Women & Gaming' forum doesn't sit properly & I wonder why, if we have that, we don't have a 'Men & Gaming'.
I see too much racism & sexism going on but that is apparently okay as it 'attempts to redress the balance' or is 'tongue in cheek' or some other such excuse. Doesn't change what it is.

I thought we were all just gamers here


I have a question... why is it that people routinely feel a need to piss on our playground?

Why all the resentment that one tiny bit of the site has been declared a sort of safe zone for women to relax and chat about games together if they want to.

We don't even exclude men, we just have a defined place for women to find each other.

Where MAYBE we will have less sexist crap that annoys us to deal with tossed randomly into any given thread we try to read.

It isn't like it costs any other site users any tangible resource. The BGG site isn't hurting for data storage or anything.

We women often have supporter badges so we are paying our dues to help support the tiny resource allotment we do take up.

I just don't see how it is hurting anybody and it brings many of us pleasure.

So what is the big deal?? If you don't like it... just ignore that it is there.

shake
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Mrs Smith
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If you don't understand why there is a 'women and gaming' sumforum - Read this short parable: https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/ and try to appreciate that regardless of whether you notice it or think it shouldn't matter, BGG is a male dominated site, and that for some the women and gaming subforum is just one warm place beside a lamp.
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Tegs wrote:
If you don't understand why there is a 'women and gaming' sumforum - Read this short parable: https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/ and try to appreciate that regardless of whether you notice it or think it shouldn't matter, BGG is a male dominated site, and that for some the women and gaming subforum is just one warm place beside a lamp.


Whoa that's a good thought-provoker there. Thanks! thumbsup
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Chris Stanton
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Quote:
I have a question... why is it that people routinely feel a need to piss on our playground?


Who said anything about pissing in your playground?
Just wondering why the women have one & the men don't
And please don't say 'the rest of the site'

You mention 'sexist crap' but don't seem to see that by having something for one gender but not the other IS sexist. Positive discrimination is still discrimination


So play in your playground, I have no objection to you having one....
....just as long as the men can have one too
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Scott M.
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Synnical77 wrote:
First off, I know that it's ill-advised to ask a question like this / talk about a subject such as this as it goes against the way the world treats equality and such. I'm rolling the dice on a person-by-person basis here and am just as likely to get receptive readers as I am to getting requests that I jump off a cliff. Here it goes anyways, feel absolutely free to criticize me:

Why on earth is there a specific category in our forums called 'Women and Gaming'? It 's always struck me as kind of...I don't know the word... Weird? Strange? Not Right? Nope, none of those are the right words. I'll settle on abnormal. Whenever I see a forum title on the front page that says something like "Ladies! What games did you play this weekend" it's always struck me as exclusionary. I've occasionally peeked into these seemingly forbidden forum posts and have also occasionally wanted to post. Never have because it felt like I'd be intruding or something like that.

As time has gone on it's gotten me thinking. Louder and louder the more I notice it - can't stop my brain from giving me stupid thoughts unfortunately. Why isn't there a category labelled 'Men and Gaming'?

Really, that unsettles me just as much as the 'Women and Gaming' but at least there would be clear boundaries where women could post women stuff and men could post men stuff. Or could men post about women in the Woman and Gaming section and could women post about men in the Men and Gaming section. Meh...we could just cross post like crazy and pretend that we're all just a bunch of hobbyists who are sharing the same site.

Or, are we just out right saying that BGG is a home for men and that we need a special place for woman stuff. If that's the case then


I apologize for asking stupid questions.


Fixed that for ya...your welcome...
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Jason Novak
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Toc13 wrote:
Quote:
I have a question... why is it that people routinely feel a need to piss on our playground?


Who said anything about pissing in your playground?
Just wondering why the women have one & the men don't
And please don't say 'the rest of the site'

You mention 'sexist crap' but don't seem to see that by having something for one gender but not the other IS sexist. Positive discrimination is still discrimination


So play in your playground, I have no objection to you having one....
....just as long as the men can have one too


The rest of the site. Yeah, I said it.

If one group is under-represented, and they feel their needs are not only not being met, but are being disregarded as actual needs, then the mainstream belongs to the group who is not over-represented. This is also why it's OK for there to be an "African Americans for Obama," which is not racist, but you can't have a "White Americans for Romney," which would be racist. When you are the "mainstream", the mainstream is your special group.
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Chris Stanton
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Quote:
African Americans for Obama

Quote:
White Americans for Romney


Okay-I see these both as racist....because the titles make an issue of race
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jood shine
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if it bothers you all so much then get a men and gaming section...i think it would be great idea

meanwhile arent you all bored yet by constantly rehashing the same old points about the womens forum
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Samo Oleami
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Synnical77 wrote:
Or, are we just out right saying that BGG is a home for men and that we need a special place for woman stuff.


We are not saying it's a home for men, but it is dominated by men. Check the statistics. And there's plenty of mild (the women holding a box meme) or less mild (busen memo meme) sexism around as a consequence. And to not make it a home for men, the site admins decided to add a place for women to make them feel welcome here and to become an active part of community. I consider it a wise move.
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Rich Shipley
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Toc13 wrote:
Just wondering why the women have one & the men don't
And please don't say 'the rest of the site'


It exists because people asked for it and put forth their reasons.

Do you really see a need for a Men and Gaming forum? I haven't seen a good case made for it yet.
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Samo Oleami
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rshipley wrote:
Do you really see a need for a Men and Gaming forum?

Actually it exists.

Here: http://fortressat.com/

And there's a woman in charge. (well one of those in charge)
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Kristin Crane
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Argh, I don't know why this needed to be re-hashed AGAIN but I will throw in my two cents.

If you go into the Women and Gaming forum, you will notice that most of the women who post there are new(er) users. This site's layout can be a bit challenging for newcomers. Many of us are using the Women and Gaming forum as a springboard into the world of BGG. We get a warm welcome and are directed to many cool things, like other sub forums and the higly addictive play by turn site Yucata. Women have encouraged each other to try out the Miniature painting monthly contest, do reviews, post auctions, write blogs and upload photos. All of these things contribute to the Board Game Geek site as a whole.

Because of the Women and Gaming site, I've become more active on the Geek and I've made some friends. Why is this seen as a bad thing by so many men?
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Nunya Business
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Toc13 wrote:
Quote:
I have a question... why is it that people routinely feel a need to piss on our playground?


Who said anything about pissing in your playground?
Just wondering why the women have one & the men don't
And please don't say 'the rest of the site'

You mention 'sexist crap' but don't seem to see that by having something for one gender but not the other IS sexist. Positive discrimination is still discrimination


So play in your playground, I have no objection to you having one....
....just as long as the men can have one too


^^^THIS.

Best. Comment. Ever.

Of course you'll be hated on for speaking the truth.
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Toc13 wrote:
I'm another for whom the 'Women & Gaming' forum doesn't sit properly & I wonder why, if we have that, we don't have a 'Men & Gaming'.
I see too much racism & sexism going on but that is apparently okay as it 'attempts to redress the balance' or is 'tongue in cheek' or some other such excuse. Doesn't change what it is.

I thought we were all just gamers here


Think of it as place where we go to regrow that thick skin we are expected to have to put up with things like Titty Grab. If it didn't exist, I, for one, would probably no longer be here. I go through periods of just getting sick of the assumptions that get made about women gamers, because some users really don't think that we are "all just gamers here" sadly. Or other mostly harmless stuff that just grates after a while. I then retreat for a while to a safe place until I stop feeling like just quitting BGG completely.
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Toc13 wrote:
Quote:
African Americans for Obama

Quote:
White Americans for Romney


Okay-I see these both as racist....because the titles make an issue of race


I think you missed the point of what Jason was trying to say. Thanks Jason, you described the situation perfectly! It reminds me of the time they made a big deal about how some woman wanted to compete in the PGA golf tournament. The woman wanted the right to compete against the men. However, men are not allowed to compete in the LPGA? I'm all for equal rights, but nothing draws more attention to inequality than biased clubs.

Like Jason said, I'm part of the mainstream. Which means it's perfectly normal to be discriminated against.

As for Lynette, no one is pissing on your playground. Since you have your special group, I'm assuming it's because women have vastly different views on gaming. I wonder why there's no gay/lesbian group, or [insert your favorite minority] group. I'm sure each segment of the population must have their own points of view. I suppose we should have a group for each of them. That's the problem with catering to each special interest group. You're bound to leave someone out. Would that really be fair?

Back to Jason's initial comment, the problem I see with catering to non-mainstream groups is that such behavior creates animosity. I've always felt that you can't fight in-equality by creating an uneven playing field.
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CHAPEL
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I say be done with it and create a Men's forum...We can call it the "Smoking Lounge" or the "Grand Poobah's", or something cool like that. We won't talk about feelings, Kittens, fairness or babies, but instead we can talk about Wargames, Paintball, Disc Golf, Football, F1 Racing, Tanks, Guns, Ninja Stars, High Adventure, Steaks, and BEER!


I agree, Women ARE different and having a separate forum for women's issues is important.

And because they are so different, then lets call a spade a spade, and get on with this.
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Here is a reason, offered by a feminist, for why women-autonomous spaces should exist. I've bolded the relevant parts:

Quote:
People also ask me, “isn’t Women’s Studies sexist towards men?” (Here we go again with the “But what about the men?!!”) Women have been and still are a disenfranchised group in society. Like other marginalized groups (people of color, the queer community, differently-abled people, etc.) we’ve had to fight for inclusion within society’s heterosexual, white, upper class, male-centric, oppressive institutions. And in fighting for inclusion we are vilified as troublemakers and rabble-rousers. How dare we even try to subvert the norm?!

And now that we’ve managed to effectively carve out some safe spaces where we can discuss issues relevant to us, challenge the dominant modes of knowledge production and transmission, share our stories and experiences with each other, organize and build community, we are falsely accused of being reversely sexist? As if such a thing was even possible. Simply by demanding to at least try and level the playing field, and demanding to move towards equality, we were cast as the oppressive bad guys.

Therefore, claiming that feminists, feminism and Women’s Studies are all practicing or embodying “reverse sexism” is a mere silencing technique to further legitimize the status quo and to further normalize patriarchal oppression in society. It is a way to deny marginalized groups access to and membership in hegemonic institutions. It is a way to deny them any contributions to the construction and perpetuation of dominant discourses and ideology in society.


You can of course disagree with this, but I think it makes a sound point about autonomous spaces. That is, women need autonomous spaces because in those spaces and only in those spaces can they be free from marginalisation. Only in autonomous spaces can women speak without feeling that the presence of men somehow modifies what they want to say.

Men do not experience marginalisation on BGG, not even in the Women and Gaming forum. Therefore any perceived need for a "Men and Gaming" forum is not based on the same reasons that women claim a Women and Gaming forum.

To put it bluntly, I think the existence of a space in which men felt they were not being observed by women would probably attract the sort of men who reflexively make sexist comments and/or objectify women. It certainly wouldn't, in my opinion, improve the experience of BGG.
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CHAPEL
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Boots01 wrote:

To put it bluntly, I think the existence of a space in which men felt they were not being observed by women would probably attract the sort of men who reflexively make sexist comments and/or objectify women. It certainly wouldn't, in my opinion, improve the experience of BGG.


Well to put it bluntly I don't think a Womens forum improves the experience of BGG, in my opinion.

It looks like we are all full of opinions, but not equality.

Mens Forum....Scott?

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