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Subject: It's me, rss

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Brian
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the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it
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Lynette
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fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


If you're not joking... would you like to shed some light as to why?

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Meerkat wrote:
fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


If your not joking... would you like to shed some light as to why?



Maybe that's as close as he can get to a girl so he has to be able to retrace his tracks to look at a picture of a real girl.
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Robert Beachler
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Or you could just stop doing such a dorky thing.
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It could be overwhelmingly strong OCD
(but since you have no tags in your contribution list I assume it's just overwhelmingly strong trolling need )
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Jessica
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fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


The best intention I can guess you had for posting this, directly in Women and Gaming, is humor.

It isn't funny.

When I read it I felt it mocked the very message that has been put forth the last few days that the activity called out in your post is an example of what makes an unwelcoming environment for women. And in the forum on BGG where women are more likely to see it and might think they are otherwise more likely to find a space with an environment that is welcoming.

At best, poorly played.

You are welcome to rethink your attempt at discomfort-lightening humor and follow up with an apology. In which case this instead becomes a shining example of how open discourse leads to change and an environment in which all participants feel welcome and respected.

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Seth Brown
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And I'm the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with Ryan Gosling in it
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Jeff Hinrickson
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jessicac wrote:
fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


The best intention I can guess you had for posting this, directly in Women and Gaming, is humor.

It isn't funny.

When I read it I felt it mocked the very message that has been put forth the last few days that the activity called out in your post is an example of what makes an unwelcoming environment for women. And in the forum on BGG where women are more likely to see it and might think they are otherwise more likely to find a space with an environment that is welcoming.

At best, poorly played.

You are welcome to rethink your attempt at discomfort-lightening humor and follow up with an apology. In which case this instead becomes a shining example of how open discourse leads to change and an environment in which all participants feel welcome and respected.



Although I agree with your statement of this being in poor taste. I believe you are over thinking this and gave attention to someone who desperately is seeking it.
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Brian
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jessicac wrote:
fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


The best intention I can guess you had for posting this, directly in Women and Gaming, is humor.

It isn't funny.

When I read it I felt it mocked the very message that has been put forth the last few days that the activity called out in your post is an example of what makes an unwelcoming environment for women. And in the forum on BGG where women are more likely to see it and might think they are otherwise more likely to find a space with an environment that is welcoming.

At best, poorly played.

You are welcome to rethink your attempt at discomfort-lightening humor and follow up with an apology. In which case this instead becomes a shining example of how open discourse leads to change and an environment in which all participants feel welcome and respected.



I thought it was an obvious joke with the conceit being: it would be funny if the weird fact that most pictures with women in them are tagged "girl" was attributable to one man. the true horror is it's something an apparently large group of men think is appropriate, to single out women in pictures in the same manner you would tag a cool-looking dicetower or storage solution

I also have never read this forum before so yeah it's presumptuous of me to post in here, so sorry about that
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Jessica
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fielddayfits wrote:
jessicac wrote:
fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it


The best intention I can guess you had for posting this, directly in Women and Gaming, is humor.

It isn't funny.

When I read it I felt it mocked the very message that has been put forth the last few days that the activity called out in your post is an example of what makes an unwelcoming environment for women. And in the forum on BGG where women are more likely to see it and might think they are otherwise more likely to find a space with an environment that is welcoming.

At best, poorly played.

You are welcome to rethink your attempt at discomfort-lightening humor and follow up with an apology. In which case this instead becomes a shining example of how open discourse leads to change and an environment in which all participants feel welcome and respected.



I thought it was an obvious joke with the conceit being: it would be funny if the weird fact that most pictures with women in them are tagged "girl" was attributable to one man. the true horror is it's something an apparently large group of men think is appropriate, to single out women in pictures in the same manner you would tag a cool-looking dicetower or storage solution

I also have never read this forum before so yeah it's presumptuous of me to post in here, so sorry about that


Thank you for the response Brian! With the conceit laid out, it is funny. But feelings are pretty sore right now and this was fuel on a fire that wasn't out yet. It happens to everyone sometimes - I am no stranger to the taste of my foot, having put it in my mouth on many occasions.

Welcome to the Women and Gaming Forum. Gentlemen are certainly welcome.
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Paul DeStefano
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Guys, you do no you can go to a tag, click it, click the number next to it and see who added that tag... right?

Tags are not anonymous.
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Eugene
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robbdaman wrote:
Or you could just stop doing such a dorky thing.

Has anyone spelled out in precise words why this girl tag is so offensive?

Be prepared for questions as to how any such analysis also applies to baby tags.
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garygarison wrote:
robbdaman wrote:
Or you could just stop doing such a dorky thing.

Has anyone spelled out in precise words why this girl tag is so offensive?

Be prepared for questions as to how any such analysis also applies to baby tags.


First - let's stay away from the word "offensive" - it always leads to some very strange places (ie, "I'm offended that you're bringing this up"). It's enough to say that women find it uncomfortable to be singled out for their gender when arguably their gender is irrelevant to the games in the picture.

And as to why it's a problem - it's a problem because of the following reasons:

- Nobody tags images with 'man'. That means that the taggers think of men as so normal that they don't need to have their presence pointed out, and women as aberrant.

- Tags are a way of storing images for later collation/sorting. That creates the possibility that somewhere, a man is clicking on the 'girl' tag to quickly look at a lot of images with women in it. Why?

- Photos tagged 'girl' (or something like 'hot girl' or 'cute') tended to hit the front page very quickly, and to get more thumbs. This was exponentially true if the image showed cleavage or was deemed particularly attractive. Again, the tag was being used to single out women because of their appearance rather than their interest in boardgames.

Look, some men are probably using the tag without intent to harm. Some men are probably even just looking at the images without intent to 'check out' the women in them. But sometimes it gets really nasty. There was one image of a girl who was hiding behind a rulebook. All you could see was her eyes and hair. She was made so uncomfortable by the comments on the image (which got hundreds of thumbs and made the front page) that she quit the site. The comments were mainly requests that she stop hiding behind the rulebook - the men commenting wanted to look at her. Not talk to her, not play games with her - look at her.

So in short - 'girl' tags on images represent potential marginalisation for women - their use can potentially ostracise women (by separating them from men ie fellow gamers), isolate women (by making them feel unwelcome) and even in some cases silence women entirely (by making them leave the site).






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William Boykin
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I like to think of the people who post on BGG as my friends.

Going through pictures of my friends and tagging some of them to be easily found when I'm *ahem* alone at night to me is just......incredibly creepy.

Why is it hard to just treat people the way you would like to be treated yourself?

Darilian
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Chris
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fielddayfits wrote:
the guy who systematically tags "girl" to every image on this site with a woman in it

Are you also the guy with the male-oriented rules and card text?

My wife always swears that the Dominion cards just don't apply to her, since it's always, "He gains a Curse", and "He trashes a card". She not being a he, the affect always fizzles, she claims.
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Liumas wrote:
Are you also the guy with the male-oriented rules and card text?

My wife always swears that the Dominion cards just don't apply to her, since it's always, "He gains a Curse", and "He trashes a card". She not being a he, the affect always fizzles, she claims.


You know, as an experiment to make gender visible to men, playing all games according to pronouns in the rules might work really well.

EDIT: Further to that last statement, I've thought it through and yes, I think it would work really well. If you followed a gendered ruleset to the letter, you'd probably find that women literally couldn't do anything int he game - they couldn't move pieces, draw cards, play cards etc. That would be a pretty great (if sledge-hammery) example of male privilege in action, even if from time to time a woman appeared to be privileged by evading a negative consequence of the game.

If I'm right (and I might not be), games played in this way could make male privilege visible to male players. That is, it would render visible a systemic bias against women that the men playing the game didn't necessarily author, even if they can take advantage of it. Sort of like a Bechdel Test for boardgames.
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Eugene
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Boots01 wrote:
It's enough to say that women find it uncomfortable to be singled out for their gender when arguably their gender is irrelevant to the games in the picture.

Don't you find this comment a little incongruous, being made in a forum that singles out women?

Quote:
- Nobody tags images with 'man'. That means that the taggers think of men as so normal that they don't need to have their presence pointed out, and women as aberrant.

There is a guys tag, 107 pages of them. But that's neither here nor there. Women and girls are not aberrant, any more than the tagged babies are. As it's frequently mentioned, women -- and babies, actually -- simply are underrepresented in the hobby.

Quote:
- Tags are a way of storing images for later collation/sorting. That creates the possibility that somewhere, a man is clicking on the 'girl' tag to quickly look at a lot of images with women in it. Why?

Why babies?

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- Photos tagged 'girl' (or something like 'hot girl' or 'cute') tended to hit the front page very quickly, and to get more thumbs.

But people images no longer appear on the front page as a default.

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Look, some men are probably using the tag without intent to harm. Some men are probably even just looking at the images without intent to 'check out' the women in them.

As promised, I ask if this analysis also applies to the tagged baby images.

Quote:
So in short - 'girl' tags on images represent potential marginalisation for women - their use can potentially ostracise women (by separating them from men ie fellow gamers), isolate women (by making them feel unwelcome) and even in some cases silence women entirely (by making them leave the site).

I'm just not seeing the direct connection you're making.
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Darilian wrote:
Going through pictures of my friends and tagging some of them to be easily found when I'm *ahem* alone at night to me is just......incredibly creepy.

Any creepiness is a product of your own speculation.
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Lynette
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Why babies are different?

The presumption is that people tagging "babies" are doing so for the same reason people tag Cats and Dogs... they are cute in an entirely innocent fashion.

The presumption about the tag "girl", especially if the tag is "hot girl" or something similar, is that the purpose for the tag is for easy recall for potential "sexual" admiration/stimulation. Which even if it is a mild admiration wistful nebulousness fantasy, rather than the more intensely creepy masturbation fodder, it still feels invasive to women who didn't intend for pictures of themselves to be used in that manner.

While it is possible that some pedophile is tagging baby pictures for perverse reasons, again the PRESUMPTION is that most BGG members are not pedophiles, therefore that is not seen as very likely.

However the presumption that most of the men on BGG are normal heterosexual males, which is well founded obviously, means that the high number of "girl" tags are indicative that many are being used in the manner I have already described.

Does this answer your question?
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Meerkat wrote:
The presumption about the tag "girl", especially if the tag is "hot girl" or something similar, is that the purpose for the tag is for easy recall for potential "sexual" admiration/stimulation.

"Hot girl" is another matter. As would be "Ugly girl" or anything of that nature. Such labels are rude. "Girl" by itself is not rude.

Quote:
However the presumption that most of the men on BGG are normal heterosexual males, which is well founded obviously, means that the high number of "girl" tags are indicative that many are being used in the manner I have already described.

Does this answer your question?

Sadly, yes. So the concern isn't even real rudeness. It's imagined rudeness. Imagined rudeness behind closed doors, even.

I ask you to please consider that perhaps this tilting at windmills does little to help your cause.
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Lynette
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garygarison wrote:


Quote:
However the presumption that most of the men on BGG are normal heterosexual males, which is well founded obviously, means that the high number of "girl" tags are indicative that many are being used in the manner I have already described.

Does this answer your question?

Sadly, yes. So the concern isn't even real rudeness. It's imagined rudeness. Imagined rudeness behind closed doors, even.

I ask you to please consider that perhaps this tilting at windmills does little to help your cause.


First of all... it isn't "my" cause. I am trying to explain why some people feel uncomfortable if their pictures end up getting a lot of a certain kind of attention.

I don't personally have this issue. I honestly could not care less about tags or even objectifying pictures myself. But that doesn't mean I cannot empathize with others who do and intellectually grasp where they are coming from.

If I have any "cause" I can stake a claim to, it is trying to bridge the communication gap between two or more different groups who are having trouble communicating.

As for the tilting at windmills/imagined rudeness.

First to the women for whom this is an issue... it isn't imaginary RUDENESS. Hell Rude is as good as it gets. Intrusive, demeaning, embarrassing, SCARY, humiliating, intimidating, infuriating ... these all can attach. It can be a form of emotional violation especially as in the case of the ones who find themselves the focused target of such tags and comments unexpectedly, which is why some of them then leave this site.

And it certainly isn't imaginary when guys are making "I'd hit that" comments on the pictures themselves.


BUT for the sake of debate... EVEN IF you were in anyway correct and NOBODY EVER got aroused over nor used those pictures as part of any fantasy of any kind... (As unlikely as that supposition is) you still would be facing the problem of convincing every women who has been here, is here, and will ever be here that BGG is some kind of magical asexual place were none of the rest of society's norms apply.

Which means ... If you could magically make sure every woman actually saw this

Quote:
So the concern isn't even real rudeness. It's imagined rudeness. Imagined rudeness behind closed doors, even.

I ask you to please consider that perhaps this tilting at windmills does little to help your cause.


All you would actually accomplish is to convince them yet again that what they consider to be REAL and GENUINE concerns that are making them uncomfortable being here are going to be Dismissed OUT OF HAND by a significant portion of the male population.

Therefore their options are narrowed down to put up with it, or leave.

The real world reality is that even average looking women (very well "hot" ones) pretty much all have real life in person experiences that made them justifiably uncomfortable due to unwanted excessive pressure and attention, which didn't cease just because they had made it clear that it was unwanted.

So until you can manage to prove that this place is somehow magically different you are going to have a really really hard time convincing them that internet attention which seems to be focused primarily on their "f*ckablity" rather than their GAMER qualities is somehow different than what they know they have experienced in face to face life. And since they didn't "Imagine" those events... they have no reason to not assume the motivations they know are true then/there are the same here.

And now back to reality instead of that magical world of an asexual BGG ... Besides You and I both know that the probability of ALL those "tags" having zero sexual interest connected to them is virtually non-existent.

And knowing you are being pawed over in some strangers mind creeps out a lot of women.

Being reminded that your primary value to many men is based almost entirely on your looks is offensive and hurtful to a lot of women.

So saying their concerns are based on something imaginary is a faulty argument that has no real justifiable foundations.
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garygarison wrote:
Quote:
- Nobody tags images with 'man'. That means that the taggers think of men as so normal that they don't need to have their presence pointed out, and women as aberrant.

There is a guys tag, 107 pages of them. But that's neither here nor there.


Nice comparison. I suspect you also searched for "guy" and found the all of 16 pages, as compared to the 293 pages of images tagged girl. No wonder you'd like the actual data to be "neither here nor there".

Quote:
Has anyone spelled out in precise words why this girl tag is so offensive?

Be prepared for questions as to how any such analysis also applies to baby tags.


The fact that you think that people's motivations for tagging things 'girl' even remotely relate to the motivations for tagging things 'baby' makes me think that precise analysis would be a waste of time as a tool of persuasion.
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garygarison wrote:
Don't you find this comment a little incongruous, being made in a forum that singles out women?


No, I don't. I don't think you understand the difference between a woman being singled out by men for her looks, and women singling themselves out. One is being subjected to another person's categorisations, the other is autonomously creating your own. In the main forum, men can be themselves free from women's influence. In the main forum, women get told how to talk and how to act (don't overreact, don't be impolite, don't be irrational). In The women's forum, women can be themselves free from men's influence.

You might need to do some pretty confronting reading before you can 'get' that. It won't be fun. It will make you feel like an arsehole. But it might be instructive, if you realise that the women writing these works are talking about a systemic bias rather than individual men. I short, you shouldn't feel like an arsehole for unwittingly benefiting from something at someone else's expense. Nobody will blame you for it.

Quote:
There is a guys tag, 107 pages of them. But that's neither here nor there. Women and girls are not aberrant, any more than the tagged babies are. As it's frequently mentioned, women -- and babies, actually -- simply are underrepresented in the hobby.


Let's look at a simple tag comparison:

girl: 293 pages
guy: 16 pages

woman: 3 pages
man: less than 1 page

girls: 57 pages
guys: 107 pages

women: 7 pages
men: less than 1 page

If women are under-represented in the hobby, why are they over-represented in the image tags?

Quote:
Why babies?

This is a straw man. By proposing it, you are suggesting that incidence of pedophilia is comparable to incidence of objectification of women.

Quote:
But people images no longer appear on the front page as a default.

They are literally one click away.

Quote:
As promised, I ask if this analysis also applies to the tagged baby images.

No, it does not. There are no comparable images of children that I have seen on this site that compare to this and this. I have no evidence to back this up, so choose to assume what you will, but my assumption is that there are more heterosexual men on this site who find these images titillating than there are pedophiles. By a significant margin, possibly by orders of magnitude. Why do you think these are the two hottest 'people' images of all time on BGG? What do they have in common?

Quote:
I'm just not seeing the direct connection you're making.


That's pretty clear. The best example I can offer is this.

In the comments on this image, two men say they will use this image as their wallpaper - without asking the woman in the image if this is OK. Several more men pass judgement on this woman's appearance, either positively:

"Beats that overloaded Magic girl anytime"
"Beautiful, "smiling" brown eyes, cute pink cheeks... This picture gets my vote. A good example of less is more. What game is this again?"

or negatively:
"I bet she has black and missing teeth behind those cards."

When they're done with that, they make assumptions about her personality based entirely on that one photo:
"That's all very well, but somewhere, in some far-flung corner of the earth, some guy is sick and tired of putting up with her cr*p."

One guy even makes the suggestion that she poses for porn:
"Further investigation uncovers a Suicide Girl in our midst !!"

There is even a comparison to the photo of the girl playing magic, which attracts the comments:

"Not enough oiled up cleavage to beat the magic girl."
"Cleavage is getting boring, mystery and promises rule."

Eventually the girl in the image posted this:

Quote:
That is it.
I'm tired of this.
I'm sorry the people on this website aren't grown up enough to treat each other with respect.
I'm done with it.
I have only been a member for two weeks. And in that time you have made me feel so unwelcome, so uncomfortable, and so alienated I am not coming back and I am not recommending this site to any friends. Ever.
Congaratulations Assholes.
You did the trick.


I can already guess all the reasons you will use to dismiss this:

"but it's from 2006"

Yes - and I will admit that the prevalence of such comments has decreased. However, looking at the most thumbed 'hottest' images of people from the last seven days reveals this:

5/9 have a woman in isolation
8/9 have at least one woman
3/9 are tagged 'girl'

If women are, as you claim, under-represented in the hobby, why do you think they are over-represented in 'hot' images?

In addition:

6/9 are tagged 'smile'
5/9 are tagged 'cute' or 'beautiful'

Even if you disagree that it is objectification, why are these images tagged with physical characteristics or judgements of physical characteristics?

"but it's not tagged 'girl'"

Yes, that's true - but if the argument is about objectification, does it really matter which specific tag is used?

"but she didn't leave the site after all"

No, and neither have a number of women who have expressed anger or despair at gender discrimination on the site. But then again, having to make a choice between access to the things you enjoy and avoiding treatment you object cannot be an easy choice - it is a choice between being isolated from your hobby or putting up with treatment you don't enjoy. Which is what I meant when I said these tags can marginalise, isolate or silence women.

And probably at least two more I haven't thought of yet.
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Lynette
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Boots01 wrote:


"but she didn't leave the site after all"



Yes she did. She doesn't have a single contribution of any kind after this.

She hasn't even logged in since 2010. I suspect for awhile she continued to use the site as a way to keep her game collection tracked and as a strict "game research" site.

She stopped being a member of the community after that first few weeks and that incident.
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garygarison wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Going through pictures of my friends and tagging some of them to be easily found when I'm *ahem* alone at night to me is just......incredibly creepy.

Any creepiness is a product of your own speculation.


Oh, I forgot-
You have objective knowledge of what is appropriate.

*sigh*
You'll excuse me if I'm not going to derail this thread to your bait- especially since you never really responded to any of my points in previous threads.

Toodles!

Darilian
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