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Subject: This or No Retreat The Russian Front rss

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Kurtis Swekla
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Hi all,
I cross-posted this in the No Retreat forum as well. I am looking at adding 1 of the 2 to my collection and just wondering what others think if you could only buy No Retreat (new GMT treatment) or A Victory Lost which one would you get and why. I have read over the rules of both and each seems to have intriguing bits without being too fiddly. Main thing holding me back from AVL is the high cost of getting a used copy. And I would rather start with it rather than AVD.
thanks
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Iain K
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Totally different scales.

I *have* chosen to own a copy of the Operational level AVL as it is a fantastic game that captures the maneuver of the Eastern Front.

NR may be a good game, but it isn't to my tastes and with it's limited frontage fails to capture the scale, the sweeping maneuver and the vast space of the eastern front ... even for a strategic level treatment it fails utterly for me.
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Mark Gray
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This is not a good question.
You NEED them both!!!
SAVE! SAVE! SAVE!
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German Mike
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Both games are great, I own both. I totally agree that the scales are different and therefore not really comparable. AVL is operational (Divisions, IIRC) and No Retreat is grand strategic (Armies).

What tips my scale significantly in favor for No Retreat is the significantly shorter playing time. A full game of AVL clocks about 8-10h realistically. A full campaign game of No Retreat might eventually take the same amount of time, but each individual scenario (and there are 6 of them) should only take you about 3h.
 
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Bill Lawson
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A Victory Lost
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Jon Gautier

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Quote:
A full game of AVL clocks about 8-10h realistically.

Gotta disagree. If AVL took me 8-10 hours, I'd shoot my opponent and then myself. 4-6 is more like it in my experience.
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Lawrence Hung
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Sounds like you are new to wargaming. If I were you, I would go for No Retreat. It's still in print. The blend of strategy cards with hex and counters map here is perfectly meshed together. Plus, the game itself is tight in the balance.
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Eric Lai
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Agree with most of the above: I would buy both, but AVL is OOP and hard to buy, so go No-Retreat.

Out of the two, I like AVL better, its a ton of fun, has great flow, there are some gamey elements but the game as a whole is very well realized and its definitely a game design for effect. The chit-pull element shines in this game and makes for a good solitaire experience to boot.

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I agree with Lawrence Hung and Eric Lai - get the "currently in print game" while you can and plan on buying A Victory Lost when it gets reprinted. Based on what MMP has said elsewhere, it will come back into print at some point in the future... although that might still be a year or two down the road.
 
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Kurtis Swekla
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I have played a few vassal solo games of No Retreat and it really didn't grab me. Since it isn't a cdg the cards just seem bonusy and like I said it didn't grab me. Haven't had a chance to do a solo AVL solo but I think I might like it better even though I generally like the larger scale games better.

So far now, no to No Retreat and maybe wait for AVL reprint, thanks for the opinions though.
 
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Adam Starkweather
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Just for the AVL side of things (I haven't played No Retreat) but A Victory Denied and the very soon to come out A Victory Complete (on Tannenberg)are still (or will be shortly) available.
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adamant wrote:
Just for the AVL side of things (I haven't played No Retreat) but A Victory Denied and the very soon to come out A Victory Complete (on Tannenberg)are still (or will be shortly) available.


A Victory Denied is a solid game, still in print, and close enough to A Victory Lost that it's a very good option to consider. If you decided against No Retreat in the short term then this is a very tempting choice.
 
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Adam Starkweather
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Don't discount A Victory Complete that's coming out in a few weeks in the next Special Operations. I suspect this will be a big winner. Playtesters loved it.

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Bill Lawson
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adamant wrote:
Don't discount A Victory Complete that's coming out in a few weeks in the next Special Operations. I suspect this will be a big winner. Playtesters loved it.




A Victory Complete rocks! You will be sorry if you miss this one!
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Kurtis Swekla
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Will have to keep my eyes out for that one.

Hey Adam,
any word on your What Price Glory game, I am really really looking forward to that one, but it seems to have really stalled on the pre-order.
 
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Adam Starkweather
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Yeah, doesn't look good for my baby...but Vox Populi.
 
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We need to get some new people. The current ones don't know what they're talking about...
 
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Mateusz Wilk
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I would side with No Retreat! here. AVL is a very good game, but beside being out of print, when you play this enough you will probably notice that strategically it plays out very similarly each time (despite the chit-pull activation system). While the AVL system is elegance incarnate, I now prefer NR! because of the variability provided by cards and the solitaire system.

P.S. This being said, I am very curious to read more on A Victory Complete.
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Jon Gautier

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Quote:
when you play this enough you will probably notice that strategically it plays out very similarly each time

Not my experience. The Russians can put everything in the North, or the South, or try for a broad front advance. Each leads to very different board situations and endgames.
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David Janik-Jones
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Up Front fan, Cats were once worshipped as gods and they haven't forgotten this, Combat Commander series fan, The Raven King (game publisher) ... that's me!, Fields of Fire fan
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I really dislike East Front and also games above a tactical level. Up Front, Combat Commander series, and a few other hex-and-chit wargames do it for me. My 10mm minis and Fireball Forward rock.

That said ... I absolutely love No Retreat. Superb game and rules.
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Severus Snape
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I picked No Retreat in a trade. At the time, I was surprised that anyone would trade it away, given its popularity. After having for a while I understood why anyone would let it go. I find it too abstracted and too minimalist, despite the obvious spit and polish put into it.

A Victory Lost is, clearly, a different scale on one key campaign, and though not a perfect game, it is a very good one.

goo
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Bill Lawson
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bentlarsen wrote:
I picked No Retreat in a trade. At the time, I was surprised that anyone would trade it away, given its popularity. After having for a while I understood why anyone would let it go. I find it too abstracted and too minimalist, despite the obvious spit and polish put into it.

A Victory Lost is, clearly, a different scale on one key campaign, and though not a perfect game, it is a very good one.

goo


Yup!
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Osprey
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Also, for anyone considering A Victory Denied (because it's still in print) thinking that it's like A Victory Lost, you would be mistaken. Even though they are advertised as being in the same family they really don't play anything alike. That's not to say that A Victory Denied isn't a good game, it is. Just don't go thinking that if you've played one of them that you know how the other plays as well.
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Lawrence Hung
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bentlarsen wrote:
I picked No Retreat in a trade. At the time, I was surprised that anyone would trade it away, given its popularity. After having for a while I understood why anyone would let it go. I find it too abstracted and too minimalist, despite the obvious spit and polish put into it.



You might be right in the saying but to come think of it: you can play the campaigns in one sitting quickly while being entertained - not even something like The Russian Campaign can do. Besides, I think No Retreat's historicity is no less than some more complicated strategic level war games, but with much less overheads.
 
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