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Subject: Ramming clarification rss

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David Etherton
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(Infantry is discussed in another thread)

The rules state that Ogre can ram up to twice per turn. I assume this includes the optional ramming Ogre can perform if he only disables a unit?

Ogre with 3 movement rams unit, disables it, expends another movement to destroy it, ogre has one movement point left but CANNOT use it to ram an additional unit on an adjacent hex?

However, infantry is totally separate, so an Ogre could spend his last movement point to move into a space containing infantry and automatically use his AP to reduce it in strength once?

Likewise, an ogre could move onto a space with infantry 2, reducing it to 1, expend another point to reduce it to 1 EDIT to kill it, then use last movement point to ram an armor unit on an adjacent hex?

Finally, Ogre CANNOT enter a hex containing an infantry 3, and then proceed to burn TWO MORE movement points to kill it entirely during movement?

Thanks again,

-Dave
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David Etherton
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Another question -- I assume that if an Ogre has already rammed twice on this turn, it cannot use its last movement point to enter a space containing a unit?

Seems like a (probably bad) last-ditch strategy on defense would be to put two units between the CP and Ogre so it cannot ram the CP on that same turn.

-Dave
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David Etherton
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Sigh... and another edge case:

Ogre enters a space containing infantry, uses AP for free to lower its strength. Ogre then expends another movement point to repeat the action. Ogre cannot do this again in the same space. However, could Ogre enter an adjacent space containing infantry and lower ITS strength by one since it's a new space?

Equivalently, could Ogre move through three spaces each containing one infantry and lower each one's strength by one?

In other words, is the only restriction that Ogre cannot use AP for free more than twice per hex on infantry?

-Dave
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Andrew Walters
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These answers assume you are talking about the Ogre, rules, not G.E.V. or Ogre Miniatures, which vary in how they handle up close and personal hostilities. I'm answering after checking the Ogre rules from 2000, the most recent time they were published alone.

Quote:
The rules state that Ogre can ram up to twice per turn. I assume this includes the optional ramming Ogre can perform if he only disables a unit?


That's how I read it, definitely. 5.031 and 5.035.

Quote:
Ogre with 3 movement rams unit, disables it, expends another movement to destroy it, ogre has one movement point left but CANNOT use it to ram an additional unit on an adjacent hex?


Yup. Same rules. He's rammed twice. He may not ram again. He may use that MP.

Quote:
However, infantry is totally separate, so an Ogre could spend his last movement point to move into a space containing infantry and automatically use his AP to reduce it in strength once?


Almost. He doesn't "use" the AP. If has any AP, the unit is reduced by one squad. All the AP may still fire in the combat phase.

Quote:
Likewise, an ogre could move onto a space with infantry 2, reducing it to 1, expend another point to reduce it to 1, then use last movement point to ram an armor unit on an adjacent hex?


I think you mistyped and reduced it to one twice. You could expend a movement point to enter the hex and reduce it, then expend a second in the hex to reduce it again, then move into an adjacent hex with the third MP and ram an armor unit.

Worse, an Ogre with 4 MP like the Mark IV could move into a hex, reduce the infantry twice (one by entry, once by remaining), then move into an adjacent hex and ram an armor unit there, then re-ram that armor unit or move into a third hex and ram a second armor unit.

Quote:
Finally, Ogre CANNOT enter a hex containing an infantry 3, and then proceed to burn TWO MORE movement points to kill it entirely during movement?


I don't see a limit. You could move into a hex with a 3/1, which would reduce it to a 2/1, then expend a second and third MP to reduce it to 1/1 and then eliminate it. That would be a strange use of MPs. It's important to get the CP quickly. But since reducing infantry is explicitly *not* ramming the limit of two rams per turn doesn't apply.

Quote:
Another question -- I assume that if an Ogre has already rammed twice on this turn, it cannot use its last movement point to enter a space containing a unit?


Correct. 5.022 says you can only enter the hex if you can use section 5.03, which you can only do twice per turn.

Quote:
Seems like a (probably bad) last-ditch strategy on defense would be to put two units between the CP and Ogre so it cannot ram the CP on that same turn.


That only sort of works. First, you're assuming the Ogre has no AP left, since even AP will destroy a CP in an adjacent hex. Second, that only stops the Ogre for one turn, and since this scenario only applies when the Ogre has three movement points left, you're only delaying the inevitable by a single turn. Hard to see how you're going to destroy all the remaining movement in the following turn. But I think the rules application for this unlikely case is correct.

Quote:
Sigh... and another edge case:

Ogre enters a space containing infantry, uses AP for free to lower its strength. Ogre then expends another movement point to repeat the action. Ogre cannot do this again in the same space. However, could Ogre enter an adjacent space containing infantry and lower ITS strength by one since it's a new space?


I think the Ogre can do this a third time. Reducing infantry is not ramming, so the "only two rams" rule doesn't apply.

Quote:
Equivalently, could Ogre move through three spaces each containing one infantry and lower each one's strength by one?


Yes.

Quote:
In other words, is the only restriction that Ogre cannot use AP for free more than twice per hex on infantry?


Again, I don't think the AP is "used". If you have the AP, the infantry is reduced. Then during the combat phase you can use all the AP.

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David Etherton
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Andrew, thank you for your clarifications. I agree the AP isn't "used" per se, that was poor wording on my part. As long as you have any AP remaining, you can use it to reduce infantry strength in the same square.

I was getting my limit of reducing infantry at most twice per hex from 5.04 in the 1977 rules:

Quote:
An Ogre may choose to expend another movement point, stay in the same hex, and reduce the infantry again.


Seems a bit ambiguous to me, but I'm probably reading too much into it. Your ruleset is 23 years newer than mine!

Thanks,

-Dave
 
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Andrew Walters
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Twenty three years did nothing to change that sentence. I agree it's ambiguous, but just barely.

I think the Ogre can repeat the "back and forth over the infantry" maneuver. The rules explicitly limit *ramming* to twice per turn, and explicitly say that infantry reduction is not ramming.

The reason this hasn't really come up is that the bare Ogre rules, without the overrun rules included in G.E.V. and Ogre Miniatures, are only used for the Smash The CP! scenario, and in that scenario the Ogre has some time pressure on him and he needs to get downfield. Trading a movement point for a single squad of infantry is almost always going to be a bad deal.
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