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Subject: Deep Space Nine - When Does it Get Good? rss

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Justin Morse
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I was a huge Next Generation fan when it was on, but I never gave DS9, (or Voyager) a chance. My wife and I just finished watching TNG from beginning to end, and after much debate, we decided to give DS9 a try.

After 3 episodes my enthusiasm is waning.
I know TNG took about a season to find its legs, so I'm willing to slog through the dreck to get to the good stuff, I just want to know when that's going to happen... I've heard people say the later seasons (6 & 7) are really good, but I don't necessarily want to watch 5 seasons of crap to get to them.

All thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Also, if anybody has any thoughts on Voyager, you might as well put 'em out there now.



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paging Drew, please come in Drew.
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Hiding Tiger
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I liked TNG and Voyager but never really got into DS9 - I watched them when they were on TV, but didn't bother getting the series to watch them all.

Enterprise I did not like at all. I watched the pilot, but had to grit my teeth to get through it. Other episodes I tried to watch were so painful I gave up.
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Cringing Dragon wrote:
I liked TNG and Voyager but never really got into DS9 - I watched them when they were on TV, but didn't bother getting the series to watch them all.

Enterprise I did not like at all. I watched the pilot, but had to grit my teeth to get through it. Other episodes I tried to watch were so painful I gave up.


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JessA
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Woelf also needs to weigh in on this.

I think you should hang in there, loads of people love the series, I hope to get a chance to watch it at some point.
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joebelanger wrote:
Cringing Dragon wrote:
I liked TNG and Voyager but never really got into DS9 - I watched them when they were on TV, but didn't bother getting the series to watch them all.

Enterprise I did not like at all. I watched the pilot, but had to grit my teeth to get through it. Other episodes I tried to watch were so painful I gave up.


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Kurt
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I really enjoyed Voyager for a number of not entirely relevant to anyone else reasons:
- When I first watched it, it was in syndication and happened to be on from 12-1AM while I was an animation student, so I watched it while working late.

- I'm a big sucker for the Odyssey storyline (no surprise that Quantum Leap is also among my favorite Sci-fi shows of all time)

- I found it hit that sweet spot of episodic (vs. Serial) content, and technical quality (FX, writing, etc.)

- There's only a handful of (one even?) episodes with the Ferengi in the show's entire run

- While not as good in it's entirety as TNG, it does have a higher production value (better computers for FX largely) and isn't quite as dated. (So it's a bit easier on the eyes for watching now)

- It does have enough high points in its episodes that I'd consider it worth watching (more good than bad), especially if you're jonesing for some episodic Star Trek content.

Downsides to Voyager:
- Nelix is an annoying nimrod and doesn't leave the show fast enough. Think Wesley but with a role they felt needed to be on more frequently. The Kess storyline is only slightly less annoying, but she's not bad when Nelix isn't involved.

- They rely on a 'tachyon pulse from the deflector dish' (magic tech) to solve far too much, too frequently, especially in the early episodes.

- Captain Janeway can grate on people. Personally, she didn't bother me too much, but I can see how her at times misplace bravado can be annoying. I tried to keep it in perspective of the overall story (she was trying to get everyone home safe).

- Just like all the other recent Star Trek's they ended up doing a number of really stupid 'the holodeck has gone batty' episodes.
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After the awesomeness that was The Next Generation, many are lured into the quest for more Trek. But...
SURPRISE!!!



DS9 SUCKS ASS!!!

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Kurt
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A friend of mine claims it gets awesome around season 2 or 3 when the war with the Dominion really picks up. Personally, I couldn't get past the obnoxious Ferenghi BS characters.

If you want space station on the edge of war Sci-fi porn, I recommend Babylon 5 instead. It's quirky and not for everyone, but I found it a lot easier to get into with some really great highs in the storyline.
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DS9 found its feet in the second season and then really hit its stride in season 3. I always really liked it but its never going to be to everyone's taste.
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My wife and I are big fans of DS9 and are watching the entire season for the second time through (yeah, real big fans). It differs from other Star Trek series since there is far more character development and, frankly, soap opera interactions among the characters. I also believe the series has some of the best (worst?) villians of any Star Trek series. The antagonists are just so slimy in their behavior and even the the good guys are flawed and complicated. Now, if you're looking for lots of space ships and space battles, then the last three seasons with the war with the Dominion is what you want.

I liked Voyager far more than my wife did. I think the Odyssey arc to the entire series, wandering across the delta quandrant trying to get home appealed to me. I also like a strong woman character in a series and Janeway fits the bill. I was very disappointed when TNG killes off Natasha Yar early in the series. I liked her, too for the same reason.
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Of all the shows I liked the overarching story of DS 9 the best.

And you eventually get to see vulcans playing baseball... or was that a fever dream?
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I was a highschool drama student when I first heard of the awesome DS9.

Then years later I was batterered by this rather boring series. I decked out around the time the station was mega attacked and it wasn't exciting.
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When I was a kid I remember thinking that it worked out better once we stopped watching it and started watching Babylon 5.
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I don't know what season it was(shame on me!), but DS9 gets much better when Worf shows up. The "anti-verse" episodes from the later seaons were also quite good, building on a theme borrowed from an OS episode.

At first, the Ferengis aren't worth much, but later on they get some interesting character developments, and finally their own episode, which I thought was a classic. I actually disliked the Cardassians more than the Ferengi - I don't know why they didn't just make them Romulans, instead, as that would have been much cooler...I suppose Gorns would have been too much to ask?

The "Messenger" plotline gets somewhat irritating, and when it finally gets all explained, it's pretty much a letdown.

Oh, and watching Sisko deck Q is worth the price of the DVD!

And the time-cops show up at some point.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Voyager is similar, it doesn't get better until 7-of-9 turns up - before that it's pretty gut-wrenchingly awful. The Paris-Belanna thing just did not work, and I missed enough episodes to be still left wondering whatever happened with Kes and Neelix?

Perhaps the best character to come out of Voyager is the Doctor, and I'm glad the writers realized it, as he certainly comes to dominate the later seasons, making them quite watchable.
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I'm an old school TOS fan. While I watched it off and on, I never did get into TNG - the committee discussions, etc just grated on me. It was an important stepping stone for Wil Wheaton (whom I hated then, but love now).

I watched more DS9 then I did TNG, and found it a bit more likeable overall. However, I'm likely biased as I was willing to watch more episodes (and therefore get into the story arcs more) due to the fact that a friend worked on it as a VFX editor.

I never got into Bab 5, despite the same friend working on it. I have a knife used in the series around somewhere.

I watched about the same amount of Voyager as I did TNG, which is to say not much. I admit I hardly gave Enterprise a chance.


But yeah, I'd say give it a go, or perhaps watch a few episodes in a row from like season 3.
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Be forewarned -- the Kardashians they face-ff against on DS9 aren't big-assed Armenians.
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I never gave Enterprise a thought until one day we watched the episode where they find the Borg in Antarctica. After that we were hooked, as the main characters actually turn out to be quite likeable, although I was always waiting for "Ziggy" to zap Scott Bakula out of there at some point.
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Oddly enough, my wife and I are currently rewatching DS9 right now, at a rate of about 2 or 3 episodes per night. It is easily my favorite of all of the shows in the Star Trek franchise.
I'd say it really gets rolling about year #3, but the early shows are needed for the character development. And, when Worf signs on in year 4, things get really fun.
It really is a character driven show. Everyone has their secrets and agendas.
The Ferengis are funny but also interesting enough that they get entire episodes devoted to them.
The Cardasians are a compelling bunch, and Garek (the "tailor") and Gul Ducat are my favorite characters of any show. Excellent writing and acting where they are involved. Also, Louise Fletcher does a superb job as Kai Wynn, the Bjorean preistess.

Try to get through a few more shows. Hopefully it will grow on you. I know that it is the least loved of any Star Trek but it sure struck the right chords with me.

As for Voyager, I tried to like it but when Kess left the show there wasn't much there to keep me around. Nelix is so obviously there merely for "comedy relief" that they should have had a laugh track when he delivered his lines.
It was like they cast the show only looking to fill all of the Star Trek cliches.

My main summation of Star Trek is this:
1) The prime directive: Don't interfere with other civilizations.
2) OK; knowing that, let's see how many civilizations we can interfere with.

In every Star Trek & spin-off, the ferderation crews went looking for trouble.
In Deep Space Nine, trouble came to them, instead.
The fans complained that they weren't flying around shooting things, so the writers buckled and gave them a super-powerful "runabout" ship to do that. So they, too, can mess with other civilizations.
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You lasted much longer than I did with DS9. They didn't call it Deep Sleep 9 for nothing.
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Robert Wesley
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soblue I haven't watched "Deep Space 1 through 8" just yet, so nobody put any *spoilers* in here about them! shake
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Kurt
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MABBY wrote:


My main summation of Star Trek is this:
1) The prime directive: Don't interfere with other civilizations.
2) OK; knowing that, let's see how many civilizations we can interfere with.

LOL! I would often joke with a buddy of mine that the "Temporal Prime Directive" wasn't for the fictional characters, but really for the writers. There's only one episode (actually a two parter) of Voyager that they dealt with time travel with anything remotely approaching satisfaction at its resolution.

Year of Hell Parts 1 & 2 (Season 4/Episode 76/77) - Possibly one of my favorite Star Trek episodes ever (at the time). Take it with the caveat that I haven't seen it in nearly 10 years, so I have no idea how it still holds up. Personally, I think it's worth checking out and trying to avoid reading any descriptions of what's going on before just jumping into the episode.
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Xander Fulton
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MABBY wrote:
It really is a character driven show. Everyone has their secrets and agendas.
The Ferengis are funny but also interesting enough that they get entire episodes devoted to them.
The Cardasians are a compelling bunch, and Garek (the "tailor") and Gul Ducat are my favorite characters of any show. Excellent writing and acting where they are involved.


That's the key, here. Garek is pretty much the poster child for DS9 regarding overall change of characters over time.

And some of the characters you really do alternate between mild annoyance, hatred of, and eventually pity for.

So it's very interesting in that regard.

MABBY wrote:
Also, Louise Fletcher does a
Spoiler (click to reveal)
superb job as Kai Wynn, the Bjorean preistess.



BTW - that's a bit of a spoiler, there. I did the same thing to my wife, though, because I didn't even think about it. "Kai who? I thought Opaka was the Kai?"

Oooops...

gamesterinns wrote:
I never gave Enterprise a thought until one day we watched the episode where they find the Borg in Antarctica. After that we were hooked, as the main characters actually turn out to be quite likeable, although I was always waiting for "Ziggy" to zap Scott Bakula out of there at some point.


That one is a tricky series. It has the best production values of any 'Trek' series, by far. And (aside from Mayweather, who I never felt really 'clicked') the best cast since the Original Series. (The Archer-Trip friendship FELT the most sincere and believable since the Kirk-Spock-McCoy friendship...actually, I just liked Trip overall, he was a great character)

And I particularly love how they handled the Vulcan story arc, and the Andorians were awesome to see so much of, too.

That said, season 3 was by and large a train wreck (the series was not doing well in ratings, so they drew the wrong lesson from DS9's "Dominion War" arc and tried - BADLY - to recreate it), and half of the episodes in seasons 1 and 2 (scattered off and on throughout) you could see the germ of what could have been a great idea for a story...but horribly, horribly botched in actually writing it out.

However, season 4 (the final season) more than makes up for the shortcomings. It builds on what came before, so it's a little hard to skip right to it without missing a lot of what makes it great*, but it does such a FANTASTIC job of explaining some weird gaps in Trek lore and providing some sense of interest to this earlier period that it's definitely a must-watch for Trek fans.

* I have a hunch that someone could pick through seasons 1 and 2 and find the episodes that are either outright 'good', or have an important part introducing characters or developments important to season 4, and end up with a version of the show as 2-season set of 'Enterprise' episodes that anyone can be happy with from front to back.
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Morgan Dontanville
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I think I made it through 4 episodes of DS9. Everyone says it gets good, but some of the characters are so terrible that I just couldn't make it.

Would it be worth watching if you skip to Season 3?
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Xander Fulton
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sisteray wrote:
I think I made it through 4 episodes of DS9. Everyone says it gets good, but some of the characters are so terrible that I just couldn't make it.

Would it be worth watching if you skip to Season 3?


Depends on which characters you find 'so terrible'.
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