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Subject: Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz? rss

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Scrumpy Jack
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I'm looking for a tank war game and I'm stuck between choosing Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. I have squad leader on my wish list already. Which one would you recommend?
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M St
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SJack wrote:
I'm looking for a tank war game and I'm stuck between choosing Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. I have squad leader on my wish list already. Which one would you recommend?

Why are you stuck between the two? Just curious. There is a fair amount of other options at that scale.
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Gabriel Gendron
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Panzerblitz: Hill of Death has overall updated rules (including op fire) and very nice components. Also it's quite cheap everywhere I saw it. Maybe you could look into this one?
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Scrumpy Jack
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M St wrote:
SJack wrote:
I'm looking for a tank war game and I'm stuck between choosing Panzer Leader or Panzer Blitz. I have squad leader on my wish list already. Which one would you recommend?

Why are you stuck between the two? Just curious. There is a fair amount of other options at that scale.


I'm new to wargaming and don't know enough about it. I am looking forward to playing Squad Leader, which I've read about, and noticed that there was a Panzer Leader, which drew my attention to Panzer Blitz. I thought one or the other would be an interesting addition, but haven't read up about them very much. I thought I'd ask here first. I have Tank on Tank and Patton's Best on my wish list, the first because it is simple, and the second because it is solo, but I'm very open to other suggestions.

edit: Oh and I just bought Ogre on ebay. Can't wait to play that.
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Bill Eldard
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Peso Pete wrote:
Panzer Leader because the rules are better and allow for opportunity fire which prevents the dreaded "Panzerbush Syndrome".


I agree. But I haven't played any WW2 platoon-level wargames since Panzer Leader, so I can't say that PB/PL are the best of the genre. They are fun with the PL rules, though.
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Scrumpy Jack
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gab4tac wrote:
Panzerblitz: Hill of Death has overall updated rules (including op fire) and very nice components. Also it's quite cheap everywhere I saw it. Maybe you could look into this one?


ooo, this looks exciting, more please.
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Andy Beaton
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I'd go for Panzer Leader myself, and I did, for the reasons stated above, and because I thought the cover art was cooler when I was 14.
I'd do some research before I bought Hill of Death, though. I've heard more than a few scathing reviews.
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Brad Miller
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aiabx wrote:
I'd go for Panzer Leader myself, and I did, for the reasons stated above, and because I thought the cover art was cooler when I was 14.
I'd do some research before I bought Hill of Death, though. I've heard more than a few scathing reviews.


Oh please. Nothing beats the orange and black of PanzerBlitz!

I always enjoyed PB in spite of the bushes. For whatever reason, I never liked PL as well. PL is probably a better game though.
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Steve Willows
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If it's just the system you are interested in rather than the time period, don't forget;

The Arab Israeli Wars

This game is generally considered to be the culmination of the PB/PL series in terms of mechanics.

From the BGG Page;

Quote:
AIW was the culmination of the PB system in AH’s first contemporary period game design. It cleaned up many things from the first two games, and incorporated such things as morale and quality ratings of troops for the first time, along with more advanced weapon systems. Although it did make great advances with the PB game system, it again [like Panzer Leader] changed the basis of the system. The three “sister” games did not flow smoothly from one to another.



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Russell InGA
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Both of these systems are really out of date. I think you should consider something like Panzer Grenadier which is really the next generation of PB/PL.
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M St
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SJack wrote:

I'm new to wargaming and don't know enough about it. I am looking forward to playing Squad Leader, which I've read about, and noticed that there was a Panzer Leader, which drew my attention to Panzer Blitz. I thought one or the other would be an interesting addition, but haven't read up about them very much. I thought I'd ask here first. I have Tank on Tank and Patton's Best on my wish list, the first because it is simple, and the second because it is solo, but I'm very open to other suggestions.

Patton's Best is a great game.

With regard to Panzerblitz/Panzer Leader there are lots of other choices, most of them much less dated. I suggest reading this discussion which just rehashed the whole question of games at this scale recently:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/783321/looking-for-advic...
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O B
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If you want to look at more modern game systems then Lock and Load's games are really worth looking at. I've played a lot of theWorld at WarSeries and always found that it felt like a modern successor to the Panzer Blitz series. If WWII is you thing there's a version of the system called Nations at War.

Personally I'm a huge fan of the Tank Leader series. It's closer to Panzer Blitz in vintage so look out, but the activation system is better than the At War chit pull system. There's talk of an updated reprint soon, so you may want to wait.
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Robert Ridgeway
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Both - they really are a continuum, as well as covering the 2 sep. Euro fronts.
+ there are scenarios [in The General] for hypothetical USSR vs. West requiring both games to play.
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Jim F
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aiabx wrote:
I'd go for Panzer Leader myself, and I did, for the reasons stated above, and because I thought the cover art was cooler when I was 14.
I'd do some research before I bought Hill of Death, though. I've heard more than a few scathing reviews.


I just checked out Panzerblitz: Hill of Death on BGG and there didn't seem much about it. Some comments on the chit pull system (not always a fan) and a lengthy discussion of gun sizes on Tigers and Panthers. Are there more solid reviews on CSW Andy? I'm curious about this game now.
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Bill Eldard
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Scrogdog wrote:
If it's just the system you are interested in rather than the time period, don't forget;

The Arab Israeli Wars

This game is generally considered to be the culmination of the PB/PL series in terms of mechanics.

From the BGG Page;

Quote:
AIW was the culmination of the PB system in AH’s first contemporary period game design. It cleaned up many things from the first two games, and incorporated such things as morale and quality ratings of troops for the first time, along with more advanced weapon systems. Although it did make great advances with the PB game system, it again [like Panzer Leader] changed the basis of the system. The three “sister” games did not flow smoothly from one to another.





That sums up AIW rather well. Both AIW and Squad Leader were published by Avalon Hill in 1977, so it's difficult to tell whether one influenced the other regarding morale/quality ratings. But in the evolution of tactical wargames about WW2 and later wars, this was significant.

Naturally, the introduction of ATGMs amd helicopters also made this game different from PB/PL, and thus worth considering if you like the general PB system.
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William Barnett-Lewis
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I have loved and played Panzer Leader since it came out. It's a far better game than it's predecessor and has lots of replay value. For a game of it's era, it has held up better than many.

That said, I very recently retired my (third?) copy because I found that Nations at War: White Star Rising scratched that itch even better. Very similar in premise but the newer game is nicer in execution and has some touches (fate & chaos points, chit pull) that remind you that nearly 30 years have gone by since PL shipped. You might enjoy giving it a try,
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Andy Beaton
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Ashiefan wrote:
aiabx wrote:
I'd go for Panzer Leader myself, and I did, for the reasons stated above, and because I thought the cover art was cooler when I was 14.
I'd do some research before I bought Hill of Death, though. I've heard more than a few scathing reviews.


I just checked out Panzerblitz: Hill of Death on BGG and there didn't seem much about it. Some comments on the chit pull system (not always a fan) and a lengthy discussion of gun sizes on Tigers and Panthers. Are there more solid reviews on CSW Andy? I'm curious about this game now.


To be honest, I don't remember where I read the reviews now - I just remember being disappointed and putting my credit card away. Which is why I suggested research instead of just saying it sucks and save your money.
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Hunga Dunga
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PanzerBlitz: East Front
Panzer Leader: West Front

PanzerBlitz: No Opportunity Fire, but OF rules can be found almost anywhere
Panzer Leader: Opportunity Fire

PanzerBlitz: No dots in the middle of each hex
Panzer Leader: Polka-dot city.

PanzerBlitz: Hill of Death: Almost universally panned.
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Stephen Harper
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Hill of Death was a big disappointment for me. I thought the rules were a mess.

For a platoon-level armored game, I think the best right now is LnL's Nations at War: White Star Rising. As a matter of fact, I just pulled out my copy because I received just a couple of months ago the Cobra expansion for it, and am enjoying a solitaire game.

I had PanzerBlitz and PanzerLeader, but sold them both last year. I had purchased each of them when they were first released, but now they are past their prime, and White Star Rising has replaced them in my collection.

Having said that I sold my copies of PB/PL, I do have to take a moment and pay homage to their contribution to the hobby. When Panzerblitz first came out, it was so new and original, to my high school mind, that I snapped it up and was totally jazzed by it. And a big thank you to Jim Dunnigan of SPI fame for coming up with the system.

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Paul Amala
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Panzerblitz with the Panzer Leader rules would be my choice as others have commented.

You might also check out West End Games' Desert Steel, Western Front Tank Leader and Eastern Front Tank Leader. They are an improvement over Panzerblitz/Leader but still at the same scale and playability level.
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Ronald Tweakston
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Of the two, I'd recommend Panzer Leader. The Opportunity fire and spotting rules reduce the unrealistic advantage of hiding in the woods. The scenarios are diverse covering the small and large engagements of D-Day, Market Garden and The Bulge. There are some interesting units like flails, bridge layers, airplanes for ground support and artillery spotting, even an armoured flamethrower. Cavalry, however, can only be found in PanzerBlitz. PL has one more board than PB.

The PB/PL system was a groundbreaker but is old. There's no harm in investigating the other platoon unit scale games mentioned. I heavily house-ruled the system to my own satisfaction.
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Erik Syvertsen
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Another vote for Panzer Leader here. I never cared for Panzer Blitz or the newer Panzer Grenadier rules.
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Warren Bruhn
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Neither. Both were good in their day, the 1970's (I had and played both), but wargame design didn't stand still. For a close focus on armored combat, which seems to be the OP's interest, Tobruk was probably a better simulation. I think fighting with individual tanks rather than platoons or companies is more interesting for people who are facinated by the characteristics of the many different AFVs. Don't know whether the "Advanced Tobruck System" is any good, but it might scratch a pure tanker's itch better than what is found in games with platoon and company sized units.
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Bartow Riggs
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Personally I like Panzer Grenadier better than PB or PL. It took them a while to get the rules right (3rd edition)but PG has a ton of scenarios and is good solitaire if that matters.

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Lee Massey
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One thing I found discouraging about PL is the lack of zones of control. movement seems too easy!!
 
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