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Subject: Ambush and Burning Shield interaction??? rss

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Xiaomeng Li
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If I play Ambush first, and then Burning Shield during the block phase, I get 6(4+2) Fire Block and block an enemy successfully.
According to the text "If this card is used as part of a successful Block, you may use it during your Attack phase as Fire Attack 4", if I don't play other attack cards, do I get +1 bonus to Fire Attack 4 because this card is also the first attack card?
 
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Daniel Corban
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I don't see why not. Burning Shield is "used" during your attack just as any other card.

Sorry, I forgot that Ambush can also increase the block, not just attack.
 
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Phil Pettifer
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There's clearly an 'or' on Ambush so I don't see how you could get both.
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Xiaomeng Li
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OMG!!!
The above two answers are quite different. which is right?
 
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Paul Grogan
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Phil is correct. The ambush card clearly states OR. It either increases the first block OR the first attack.

Rules Lawyers might say that the spell is the same 'card', so it should increase both, but that is not correct.
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Phil Pettifer
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Although the question remains, could you choose to increase the Attack in this example instead of the Block? I would guess yes... but?
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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PhilP wrote:
Although the question remains, could you choose to increase the Attack in this example instead of the Block? I would guess yes... but?


I don't see how you could do that when using Burning Shield.

Ambush gives you a +2 on the first Attack OR Block that you play (it'd be better to use maybe the word "effect" instead of "card", just to avoid misunderstanding like this one), and the first effect of Burning Shield (I was going to abbreviate it using the initials... lol) is the Block, so Ambush will always give +2 to the Block effect, if Burning Shield would have given us a choice like "Attack or Block +4" then it'd have been totally different, but as it is, +2 to Block and nothing else.
 
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Daniel Corban
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Phil is correct. The ambush card clearly states OR. It either increases the first block OR the first attack.

Sorry for the confusion. Despite holding the card in my hand and re-reading it, I completely missed that it can increase the block as well as attack.

So, has anyone decided if the "or" is a choice? Or must we increase the first block, without choice.

In other words is this legal:
"I play Ambush, which gives bonus to my first block or attack. I choose attack…"
 
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Paul Grogan
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Galandil is correct.

Someone 'tried' this the other week. They played a Block card and then played an Attack card saying they got the bonus from the Ambush. This was wrong. It boosts the first card you play. If you block, it boosts that. If you attack, it boosts that instead.
 
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David desJardins
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dcorban wrote:
In other words is this legal:
"I play Ambush, which gives bonus to my first block or attack. I choose attack…"


Move 2. Add +1 to your first Attack card of any type or +2 to your first Block card of any type, whichever you play first this turn.

That seems awfully clear. You don't choose which card it applies to, it's automatically the first eligible card you actually play.

That said, it's not entirely clear whether Burning Shield is an "Attack card", or only a "Block card". I would say that Burning Shield is a Block card, which also happens to give Attack as a side-effect. So you can only get Block +2 from Ambush/Burning Shield, you can't choose to get Attack +1 instead of the Block +2. But it's not 100% clear.
 
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Daniel Corban
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Thanks for the clarification. I didn't have the card handy at the time, but I see it now. I assumed the card didn't specify, since Phil asked about it! If I had known the card already answers his question, I wouldn't have even considered it. I guess we both needed to read the card again.

As for Burning Shield, it reads as if you would literally pick up the card again during the attack phase, and lay it down as a Fire Attack 4. What makes this different than any other "attack card"?

As an example of an "attack effect", look at Sword of Justice. It says you "get Attack 3" as an effect. Maybe Burning Shield would say "get Attack 4" if it were just an effect. Instead the card says to "use as".

Although, since we already determined that the Ambush effect must apply to the Block of Burning Shield, this talk is for nothing.

However, here is another card that might showcase the Ambush question: Agility. If you play Ambush and Agility with surplus move points, choose not to block in combat, and only use the move points as attack, will they be boosted by Ambush?
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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dcorban wrote:
As for Burning Shield, it reads as if you would literally pick up the card again during the attack phase, and lay it down as a Fire Attack 4. What makes this different than any other "attack card"?

As an example of an "attack effect", look at Sword of Justice. It says you "get Attack 3" as an effect. Maybe Burning Shield would say "get Attack 4" if it were just an effect. Instead the card says to "use as".


You have to remember this part of the rules, on page 5 of the new rulebook, under Effects:

If the effect modifies some values or rules, the change always lasts until the end of the current turn (unless stated otherwise).

So you don't technically play again Burning Shield to get the Fire Attack +4, as soon as you play it for the Block effect, AND the Block is successful, you automatically get the Fire Attack +4 until the end of turn (thus, you can use it in the ensuing Attack Phase in combat).

Quote:
However, here is another card that might showcase the Ambush question: Agility. If you play Ambush and Agility with surplus move points, choose not to block in combat, and only use the move points as attack, will they be boosted by Ambush?


This is tricky indeed. But:

- Agility gives you Move X. Then, you can use remaining Movement Points not used during movement as attack points;
- Ambush gives you a +2 on the next first Attack/Block card/effect that you play after Ambush.

So, since Agility gives you Move X, you can't apply the Ambush bonus because Agility doesn't give you directly Attack/Block points.

At least, this is how I interpret these 2 cards.
 
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Marcel
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Galandil wrote:
Quote:
However, here is another card that might showcase the Ambush question: Agility. If you play Ambush and Agility with surplus move points, choose not to block in combat, and only use the move points as attack, will they be boosted by Ambush?


This is tricky indeed. But:

- Agility gives you Move X. Then, you can use remaining Movement Points not used during movement as attack points;
- Ambush gives you a +2 on the next first Attack/Block card/effect that you play after Ambush.

So, since Agility gives you Move X, you can't apply the Ambush bonus because Agility doesn't give you directly Attack/Block points.

At least, this is how I interpret these 2 cards.

I come to the same conclusion, for a different reason. Since Agility is an attack effect, I do think it coukld be amplified with the ambush for that reason.

However, ambush is an extra on the first attack/bblock played after the ambush card, and since agility is played before ambush, I think you can't use ambush on an attack only from agility points.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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mag74b wrote:
I come to the same conclusion, for a different reason. Since Agility is an attack effect, I do think it coukld be amplified with the ambush for that reason.

However, ambush is an extra on the first attack/bblock played after the ambush card, and since agility is played before ambush, I think you can't use ambush on an attack only from agility points.


You would be completely right if Ambush was a combat card.

But Ambush, like Agility, is a movement card, so you could play Ambush THEN Agility, no rule/text is forcing a player to play Ambush as his last movement card.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dcorban wrote:
In other words is this legal:
"I play Ambush, which gives bonus to my first block or attack. I choose attack…"


Move 2. Add +1 to your first Attack card of any type or +2 to your first Block card of any type, whichever you play first this turn.

That seems awfully clear. You don't choose which card it applies to, it's automatically the first eligible card you actually play.

That said, it's not entirely clear whether Burning Shield is an "Attack card", or only a "Block card". I would say that Burning Shield is a Block card, which also happens to give Attack as a side-effect. So you can only get Block +2 from Ambush/Burning Shield, you can't choose to get Attack +1 instead of the Block +2. But it's not 100% clear.


Last night I played Ambush to move into a City, then played Magic Talent to use Burning Shield from the Spell Offer. At no point did any of that really look like and "Attack card" and the phrase isn't used in the rule book. It's not a horrible leap of logic to assume that it means that if a card provides Block and attack Attack it would apply to whichever effect was used first, but it's definitely not written that way in the rules.

The ruling we used was in line with this discussion: "first effect." So I got +2 to the block but not the attack. Still, Ambush probably should be reworded in a future printing since "attack card" and "block card" are pretty ambiguous.
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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jsciv wrote:
if a card provides Block (it is a Block card) and attack (, it is an) Attack (card).
...
Still, Ambush probably should be reworded in a future printing since "attack card" and "block card" are pretty ambiguous.

It seems to me that the explanation you yourself provided is pretty straightforward and un-ambiguous. I would modify it slightly in "if a card is used to provide X it is an X card", as your wording also implies (to a rules lawyer) "if a card can be used to provide X, it is an X card".

I would say maybe add the definitions/clarification to the rules rather than change the card.
 
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Peter Van den Broeck
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Do you 'use a card' when you block an attack with a unit?
 
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Magnesi
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No, it has been officially answered. "Cards" are only deed cards, so Basic Actions, Advanced Actions, Artifacts, Spells and Wounds (except if Discarding or Thrashing). Units and skills are not cards.

Edit: Google search of "mage knight bgg ambush units" give these results:
results 1, result 2
 
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David desJardins
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References to "cards" in the rules are to "Deed cards" (Basic and Advanced Actions, Spells, Artifacts, and (in some cases) Wounds). Other things printed on cardstock, like Units or the Reference Cards, are not "cards" in the sense of the rules. (E.g., you don't "use a card" when you look at the Reference Card for a Dungeon to see what happens there.)
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