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A Game of Thrones: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Melee Plot Phase Titles Question rss

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Daniel Running
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Hi All-

I'm curious--looking at the flow chart from the FAQ there is no mention of when the titles get chosen during the plot phase. It goes:

PLAYER ACTION WINDOW

Framework
1. Choose and reveal plots
2. Initiative is counted
3. High Initiative appoints first player
4. "When revealed" effects determined by First Player

PLAYER ACTION WINDOW

Plot Phase Ends

So, when do you grab for the titles?

Thanks. Playing tonight and want this resolved.
 
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Rolly Duckfield

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I think it's after when revealed effects are concluded, but I'm not 100%. I know it says in the rulebook.
 
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Mark T
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At the end of the Plot Phase, just before the Draw Phase.
CS rulebook p11:

Phase 1: Plot
The plot phase is played in two steps:
1. Choose and reveal plot cards
2. Select Titles

The rest of the page goes into the details.


 
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Helmut Hohberger
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doormat wrote:
At the end of the Plot Phase, just before the Draw Phase.
CS rulebook p11:

Phase 1: Plot
The plot phase is played in two steps:
1. Choose and reveal plot cards
2. Select Titles

The rest of the page goes into the details.



Unfortunately, the rulebook isn't a great help in this case. The text on that page doesn't mention titles beyond what you quoted above, and that sparse passage doesn't tell us when *exactly* titles are chosen, which is what the OP wanted to know if I'm not mistaken.

There used to be a long standing interpretation that titles are chosen between step 3 and 4 of the "Choose plots" framework action window, i.e. after the First Player is determined, but before "When revealed..." effects are resolved.

This ruling has been overturned, though. There has been word from FFG that choosing titles occurs after the "Choose plots" framework action window is completely resolved. It's best to think of it as a complete framework action in its own right.
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Mark T
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It seemed quite clearly laid out to me. The page discusses all the stuff dealing with Plots, then discusses Select Titles as the next step, then the rules go into the Draw phase.

Not trying to be argumentative (as I haven't been around very long and we actually agree on the timing) but I don't know where another interpretation could have come from based on the way the rules are written, unless the CCG rules were different. I'd just do as with card interpretation: unless otherwise stated, go with the "as written": Plots, Titles, Draw. I realize the rules never actually state when to resolve Plots (or even to resolve them), but I don't see why you'd not do it during the Plot portion of the Phase. I guess the FAQ flowchart muddied the waters by dropping titles completely.
 
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Agent 57
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He is more or less correct. Even without the timing charts the words pretty clearly say choose and reveal a plot, the plots that resolve say, when revealed, so that clearly indicates a pretty good idea when that is supposed to happen. The next step in the rules is select Titles... It may not be in the framework charts in the FAQ but it is going to be an uphill battle arguing for them to be done in any other order/place.
 
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Helmut Hohberger
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I'm not trying to be argumentative either. I don't have any personal stakes in the matter, and we're all basically on the same page here anyway. The correct interpretation is not in doubt.

But - there always is a but, right? - I disagree that this interpretation clearly follows from the core set rules. It just doesn't. The CS rules (pag 11 is the page in question) are silent on the matter. They say that titles are chosen after plots are chosen and revealed. They say nothing about plot effects. I am fully prepared to demonstrate this in a close interpretation of the rules text, if anybody cares enough.

After all, if our interpretation could be derived directly from the rules, why was a different interpretation the general consensus for years? That ruling came from FFG, BTW, just as the reversal of the ruling came from FFG in late 2011.

Look at this thread from 2009, it reflects the "old" interpretation.

For comparison, also look at this thread, where the reversal of the old ruling came about (look at replay #6 and onward, the posts above that don't touch the matter at hand).

The whole question is also rehashed here.

 
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Agent 57
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The reason is because before the core set it was in fact in the rules the other way. A lot of players never read the core set rules and assumed that it was done the same way. It is not.

So instead of me rehashing an argument we know to be correct, show me something in the rules that supports an alternate answer.

It is one thing for someone to say the rules do not explicitly state something and only imply it, and another thing to say the rules even allow for any other interpretation.
 
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