Recommend
25 
 Thumb up
 Hide
70 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Something any BGGer should know about Kickstarter rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll make it short so as to make it clear and avoid any useless debate.

It is about something extremely worrying IMO about the way Kickstarter works.

It all started when, for reasons that still elude me, a tongue-in cheek post I made on a Kickstarter forum was considered a "threat" by another backer (who previously had called other backers names without anyone reporting, and no admin moderating the usage of the F word and general aggressive tone of the aforesaid backer)
Subsequently, I was banned from the forum for the time being (message saying that my profile was "being reviewed")
Fair enough.
I'm far from being such a prone to tantrums kid that I can't bear being banned from a forum even if the reasons evoked still seem far-fetched to the utmost and mostly due to the total absence of humor in an insulting kid somewhere in the world.

What IS very worrying is that when I wanted to manage my pledge (which is my right any time but during the two days before a funding ends, I did read their conditions), I... Couldn't!!!

The implications are TREMENDOUS as you can imagine:

As some of you may know, Kickstarter can have access to your bank account through an Amazon-based platform (at least it’s the way I do it)
And now here comes a situation where, if I want to change my pledge (imagine I don’t want to pay 100$ for the game anymore, something that CAN happen!) I can’t…

I thought it was my moral duty to keep people here informed of this fact since it is extremely disturbing and says loads on how this new way of buying things can get… Stranger than actually buying things from an online or real-life shop.

I do think that, in this case, Kickstarter definitely functions as an entity that is very different from a shop which, all being said and done, it IS NOT. Not for the final customer at least!

Shop = pay > get item, all the rest is pure details and of no concern to me.

Linking their forum activity to the shop part of what they are is something I wouldn’t have believed possible if I hadn’t experienced it myself.

I thought I had to warn you on this.

Thanks for your attention.

I’ll update this thread when I get a proper answer to the various mails I’ve sent to clarify this bizarre (illegal?) situation.

If this situation doesn’t evolve quickly I’ll file a complaint through a lawyer friend of mine for fraud, since limiting my access to what I can or can’t do with my money this way (or any other as far as I'm concerned) can only be described as fraud.
21 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Liam
Scotland
flag msg tools
admin
badge
I am BGG's official honey trap
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd presume you could change your Amazon billing/banking details to sever any link to your bank account.

It does sound like a problem with the system - though one that 99.9% of users will not expose themselves too. I'd hold back on the 'fraud' thing till you have heard back from them - I believe the Kickstart Admin have a 48 hour response time.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pater Absurdus
United States
Carrollton
Texas
flag msg tools
There's really no wrong way to use a margarita pool
badge
"What is best in Life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see your fristration but I personally don't pledge unless I am willing to commit.

I didn't know that backers can change their minds and am a bit surprised that they can. It seems like the process will only work if people are making a total commitment of course the kick starters must also proove that they are trustworthy and if they change something about the product last minute than the backers need to be able to back out of their commit net because the kick starters commitment changed.

Regardless, I hope you can get your money back.

Good Luck,
Redward
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Len
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"Your so-called kung-fu... is really... quite pathetic"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've made changes to my pledge without a problem. Did you get an error message? Did you contact customer support? You can also contact your credit card.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Isaac Citrom
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
monkeyhandz wrote:
I'd presume you could change your Amazon billing/banking details to sever any link to your bank account.

It does sound like a problem with the system - though one that 99.9% of users will not expose themselves too. I'd hold back on the 'fraud' thing till you have heard back from them - I believe the Kickstart Admin have a 48 hour response time.


You'd think so, wouldn't you.

I had an automatic payment transaction set up with my bank account. You know the kind, you give your banking details to the vendor/service provider. Once, I wanted to cancel all access to my bank account from a specific service provider. I call my bank only to find out it can't be done. Huh, what?! The bank told me that I can only submit information about a specific transaction, such as $92.50 from Comapny X on or about 1-May, to be blocked.

I had no idea I had exposed myself such that a vendor can just charge things to my bank account willy nilly as they see fit and choose to. And of course, there's the issue of what the bank claims it can and can't do, as it seems to me it arbitrarily decides.

Luckily, it was a big name company so no shanannagins ensued. I just don't do it anymore. That was scary.
.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Brokaw
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
It's not a damn moped!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brunogaia wrote:
Shop = pay > get item

I agree. Kickstarter has problems. We need a new system! A system where you can walk right up to an item, inspect its packaging, feel its heft, pay for it and walk away with it...

...oh, wait a minute.
43 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brokasaphasia wrote:
brunogaia wrote:
Shop = pay > get item

I agree. Kickstarter has problems. We need a new system! A system where you can walk right up to an item, inspect its packaging, feel its heft, pay for it and walk away with it...

...oh, wait a minute.


:D

I appreciate the humour in that.
The truth is that I use online shops more than I use real-life ones by now. And this is one of the reason I'm really worried when things like that appear.
Trust is the base of all commercial exchange isn't it?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LSMB wrote:
I've made changes to my pledge without a problem. Did you get an error message? Did you contact customer support? You can also contact your credit card.


Usually one can change one's pledge with two clicks.
My problem here is that theur blocking my access to forums (for reasons that would sure make you laugh if i enterde into details which I sure won't) it also blocked my access to the "manage pledge" function.
As I said, it's just as if I had ntered a shop, been considered aggressive towards a customer (which I was not in truth) and then told by the shopkeeper that he now could do what he wanted with my wallet! It's crazy!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Beachler
United States
Woodburn
OR
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So the moral of this story is to not be stupid enough to post anything on Kickstarter's forums or make comments on the site at all.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
@everyone:

In fact there's an example situation that could happen with this fault in their system:
For no reason at all, or because you wrote something that displeased him (like insults, which some backers did in the case of the game I was pledging for) someone reports you to the admin.
The "admin" (a robot I assume, taking into account the reply I got from them ) blocks your account for "reviewing" until some real person reads your post and reacts.

Now if it happens two days before the "two days before funding limit", and they take 48 hours to react, your pledge can't be changed anymore.

Now that's an issue they should adress with the utmost care.

The only proper reason to act upon the "pledge function" should be for them (as stated in their terms) to deny you the right of pledging (no money exchanged, no fuss).

And that is possible only because Kickstarter is US-based since in France for example, refusing to sell goods to someone entitled to own them is illegal.

In a way I'm glad this whole thing happened to me. It goes a long way into showing how supposedly innocent web activities can actually go awry for the sole reason that once you're on the web everybody tends to think that laws and rules don't apply anymore.

By the way, I pledged for a game before (Omen) and found Kickstarter projects quite enjoyable and fun to "do".
I never complained about the fact that the product was late as an example (due in March, still not here...). That kind of thing I easily accept and understand.

And I have nothing against Kickstarter as a system, far from it. I just want to make sure you guys know that their way of acting can be much more... awkward than it seems.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
robbdaman wrote:
So the moral of this story is to not be stupid enough to post anything on Kickstarter's forums or make comments on the site at all.

I can think of an alternative that goes a step farther.
14 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
robbdaman wrote:
So the moral of this story is to not be stupid enough to post anything on Kickstarter's forums or make comments on the site at all. :p


I wish it were, and in a way it is.

But I think the moral is that they tend NOT to know that they are a shop and not a chit-chat website for geeks.

And that is frightening in its own little way I think.

Especially since they're making big, BIG money there.

Therefore they should take a greater care to what they're actually doing...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yours Truly,
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder what someone who knows more about law than me would be able to contribute about the legality of this. Person A being able to cancel a $100 pledge but person B not being able to because of a potentially false claim by person C... somehow that just doesn't seem right.

Unless they have a disclaimer in their terms & conditions that once you make a pledge, you may lose the right to cancel that pledge even before the final two days.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JohnnyDollar wrote:
I wonder what someone who knows more about law than me would be able to contribute about the legality of this. Person A being able to cancel a $100 pledge but person B not being able to because of a potentially false claim by person C... somehow that just doesn't seem right.

Unless they have a disclaimer in their terms & conditions that once you make a pledge, you may lose the right to cancel that pledge even before the final two days.


I'm not into law but I used to ebe in commerce and what I'm sure of is

1) It sure can't be legal here in France

2) No matter what, it's a HUGE commercial "faux-pas". From now on I'll be extremely catious before pledging for anything on Kickstarter.

As someone above said sarcastically (but I sure agree with him), if I pledge for something again, I shall post no comment whatsoever
(to be honest, I also started thinking that they took that other backer VERY seriously since I was the one asking questions on the game that could be seen as... awkward... Like: "what of the gameplay please?". Otherwise I can't think of any reason to act the way they did!)
AND I will also be much more careful with the dead lines for pledge management and so on.

Last but not least, Kickstarter as whole may have lost a LOT of its appeal to me...

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Gaia
France
Asnières
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Being a Geek is a sure sign of a sound mind, cause it means you think that life as it is is dull and should be more interesting. Which it is.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've just received a message (NOT from a robot) from Kickstarter stating they would restore the funcionalities of my account.
That person also agrees that she could see that my post was made in jest "but could have be seen as threatening by other users"

Well, cool.

Still if I had the time (but I don't), I'd have been extremely pleased to discuss the question of suspending said functionnalities and the legal nitty-gritty of all this.

And what if this whole "incident" had happened two days before the two days limit?

I'd be happy to know.

Would they have taken the money even if wasn't able to change my pledge anymore?
Or would they have automatically cancelled my pledge (which, under French laws, is the equivalent of refusing to sell a good and therefore illegal)?

Questions, questions.

Strange also that I received an answer so soon after I started this here thread, and I got none before, even with the three mails I sent them...

Anyway. I'm glad this is over and even gladder you all know it can happen.
8 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel
Netherlands
Den haag
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mag74b wrote:
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.


Yes, if you commit to a pledge I don't really think it's your money any more. I could pledge to a local charity that I'm going to give them $100 during a charity drive - if I give them the money do you think you have the right to request the money back at any time?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yours Truly,
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jern wrote:
mag74b wrote:
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.


Yes, if you commit to a pledge I don't really think it's your money any more. I could pledge to a local charity that I'm going to give them $100 during a charity drive - if I give them the money do you think you have the right to request the money back at any time?


If they tell you specifically in writing that you do have the right to cancel up until a certain deadline, then you would have that right, no? So what happens when they take the right away after all, before the agreed-upon deadline? Isn't that what "terms and conditions" are all about, agreeing on a policy?
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Beachler
United States
Woodburn
OR
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are you sure that your pledges are not suspended along with the rest of your account?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Liam
Scotland
flag msg tools
admin
badge
I am BGG's official honey trap
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
And what if this whole "incident" had happened two days before the two days limit?


My understanding is you can still pull out in the final 24 hours as long as it does not drop them below their target.

Quote:
Backers may increase, decrease, or cancel their pledge at any time during the fundraising campaign, except that they may not cancel or reduce their pledge if the campaign is in its final 24 hours and the cancellation or reduction would drop the campaign below its goal.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JohnnyDollar wrote:
Jern wrote:
mag74b wrote:
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.


Yes, if you commit to a pledge I don't really think it's your money any more. I could pledge to a local charity that I'm going to give them $100 during a charity drive - if I give them the money do you think you have the right to request the money back at any time?


If they tell you specifically in writing that you do have the right to cancel up until a certain deadline, then you would have that right, no? So what happens when they take the right away after all, before the agreed-upon deadline? Isn't that what "terms and conditions" are all about, agreeing on a policy?


So, who did what now? Can't correlate your post with the OP post actually. Did he/she confirmed to the "terms and conditions"? I do not know. Do you?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Challis
United Kingdom
Hungerford
West Berkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm actually very surprised that you can change your pledge - I'd assume it was taken and gone at the point you made it. The fact that you can, I agree should apply to everyone, but I'll bet there's a clause about this in the T&C's.

Also France's retail laws are the anomaly - in most countries you can refuse to sell anything for any reason. You can't refuse to sell for a discriminatory reason (which has to be proved), but you can refuse to sell for no reason. Any shopkeeper, or barman can refuse to serve you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yours Truly,
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jern wrote:
JohnnyDollar wrote:
Jern wrote:
mag74b wrote:
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.


Yes, if you commit to a pledge I don't really think it's your money any more. I could pledge to a local charity that I'm going to give them $100 during a charity drive - if I give them the money do you think you have the right to request the money back at any time?


If they tell you specifically in writing that you do have the right to cancel up until a certain deadline, then you would have that right, no? So what happens when they take the right away after all, before the agreed-upon deadline? Isn't that what "terms and conditions" are all about, agreeing on a policy?


So, who did what now? Can't correlate your post with the OP post actually. Did he/she confirmed to the "terms and conditions"? I do not know. Do you?


When you create an account with Kickstarter:
By signing up, you agree to our terms of use

and of course you have to do that before making a pledge, so anyone making a pledge has agreed to the Kickstarter terms and conditions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magnus Karlsson
Sweden
Eskilstuna
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JohnnyDollar wrote:
Jern wrote:
JohnnyDollar wrote:
Jern wrote:
mag74b wrote:
Jern wrote:
Kickstarter is NOT a shop. Case closed.

So, what you are saying is that because they are not a shop they have the right to limit your acces to your money if they feel like it?
Because that is what they did in this case.


Yes, if you commit to a pledge I don't really think it's your money any more. I could pledge to a local charity that I'm going to give them $100 during a charity drive - if I give them the money do you think you have the right to request the money back at any time?


If they tell you specifically in writing that you do have the right to cancel up until a certain deadline, then you would have that right, no? So what happens when they take the right away after all, before the agreed-upon deadline? Isn't that what "terms and conditions" are all about, agreeing on a policy?


So, who did what now? Can't correlate your post with the OP post actually. Did he/she confirmed to the "terms and conditions"? I do not know. Do you?


When you create an account with Kickstarter:
By signing up, you agree to our terms of use

and of course you have to do that before making a pledge, so anyone making a pledge has agreed to the Kickstarter terms and conditions.


I'm sorry, I used the wrong words, but since you seemed to be speaking in favour of the OP I'm surprised that you choose to interprent it the other way around - I meant did she/he really followed the "terms and conditions" the he/she confirmed to do?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.