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Subject: Should I Kickstart this? rss

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Robert Burke
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Would you support this new game if I Kickstarted it?

http://vimeo.com/41298806


What would be a good pledge level for the full game, which includes 204 cards and 25 markers?

I am thinking of Kickstarting in October or November after more play testing and getting a sense of interest.
 
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The Other Tom
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Fascinating. While as a whole I think the design is fairly clever and I like the asymmetrical sides, I would worry about the theme being a huge draw for large audience.

I think the theme works well, but with its style artwork, (assuming what you have there would be similar to the final production), it would be difficult to get many to jump on board with this one I would guess. Just an assumption of course. I think the game would have a more widespread appeal if it was less mature in content.

My only other small quibble would be the angels and devils. As opposed to angels and demons. But really I could get past that.

Looking past the artwork I think it looks to be a very clever card game. I for one would definitely consider it as card games are right up my alley. Any idea on the length of playtime on the game?

 
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Shouldn't Envy be green?
 
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LostRoom wrote:
Fascinating. While as a whole I think the design is fairly clever and I like the asymmetrical sides, I would worry about the theme being a huge draw for large audience.

I think the theme works well, but with its style artwork, (assuming what you have there would be similar to the final production), it would be difficult to get many to jump on board with this one I would guess. Just an assumption of course. I think the game would have a more widespread appeal if it was less mature in content.

My only other small quibble would be the angels and devils. As opposed to angels and demons. But really I could get past that.

Looking past the artwork I think it looks to be a very clever card game. I for one would definitely consider it as card games are right up my alley. Any idea on the length of playtime on the game?



Thanks for the feedback. I accept that the theme will turn some people off. Heck, some fundamentalists won't listen to rock & roll too. But the whole mythology of demons and angels battling for human souls is something that really appeals to me, and the public domain artwork is stunning. Man has imagined this battle for eons and so a card game where you take part in it is at the heart of the idea. The art contained are all masterpieces from between circa 1500 and 1910. So the game will also second as religious art history flash cards. Not important, but cool if you're a fan of art.

Playtime has varied from an hour to 1.5 hours, but is getting quicker as people learn the rules and do not have to refer to their cheat sheets.

Players draw up as their last action, so they have time to think while their opponent plays, this really helps keep it moving. And although games can be long no one has felt like it wasn't moving quickly enough. This is a big focus for me.

Also, games can be made shorter by simply playing for a smaller number of souls.

If you are interested enough to follow the development blog I will be looking for play testers from those who are active. I will provide play test copies to those who commit to formal feedback and PNP copies for everyone else.

http://robertburkegames.blogspot.com/

At what price point would a card game of this size make a Kickstarter pledge a no-brainer for you?
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I thought the game sound very interesting but the art just isn't my thing. Goodluck.
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I would absolutely back this, if I felt the price was reasonable.

I love the theme. I love the artwork. I can't really comment on the gameplay without trying it myself, but it seems promising.

Changing the theme significantly would be a deal-breaker to me. Changing the art would also be unfavorable, but depending on what you ended up with I might be ok with it.

I have two minor quibbles:

"Angels vs. devils" just sounds awkward to me. "angels vs. demons" sounds more natural.

The tracks look rather fiddly, especially with those tiny, tiny counters.
 
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Robert Burke
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jimmcmahon wrote:
Shouldn't Envy be green?


Interesting... I actually researched the colors for each sin/virtue. And there are different opinions. They may change in the final game of course. I also will include icons or words that can be used to identify cards for our color blind friends.

Each of the 7 sins is countered by the 7 virtues and the side of heaven has a corresponding angel and the side of hell has a corresponding demon.

Lust - Castitas
Gluttony - Temperance
Greed - Charity
Sloth - Diligence
Wrath- Patience
Envy - Kindness
Pride - Humility

What colors would you apply to each pair?
 
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The Other Tom
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Tinyelvis wrote:


Thanks for the feedback. I accept that the theme will turn some people off. Heck, some fundamentalists won't listen to rock & roll too. But the whole mythology of demons and angels battling for human souls is something that really appeals to me, and the public domain artwork is stunning. Man has imagined this battle for eons and so a card game where you take part in it is at the heart of the idea. The art contained are all masterpieces from between circa 1500 and 1910. So the game will also second as religious art history flash cards. Not important, but cool if you're a fan of art.

If you are interested enough to follow the development blog I will be looking for play testers from those who are active. I will provide play test copies to those who commit to formal feedback and PNP copies for everyone else.

http://robertburkegames.blogspot.com/

At what price point would a card game of this size make a Kickstarter pledge a no-brainer for you?


Maybe it might be more appealing if each piece of art had a small text box with the artist and date. Just a thought.

I'll go subscribe, definitely curious to see where this game goes.

I think $30 would be a fair price. But production wise I'm not sure if having so many different fronts/backs printed would make that feasible.

I must say going from Cartoona to this design is pretty night and day though...ha.
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Raphael, Michelangelo, Bosch, Goya, Rembrandt, Memling aren't your thing?

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It's not so much that I dislike the art, I just feel that on a card format it just comes out busy & doesn't look epic as it's supposed to look. I find for my own tastes that art on such a small format looks better if a little simpler.
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Robert Burke
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Asmor wrote:
I would absolutely back this, if I felt the price was reasonable.

I love the theme. I love the artwork. I can't really comment on the gameplay without trying it myself, but it seems promising.

Changing the theme significantly would be a deal-breaker to me. Changing the art would also be unfavorable, but depending on what you ended up with I might be ok with it.

I have two minor quibbles:

"Angels vs. devils" just sounds awkward to me. "angels vs. demons" sounds more natural.

The tracks look rather fiddly, especially with those tiny, tiny counters.


I think you may be correct that "demons" may be better. I will need to research and see which is more appropriate. The game actually uses the 7 Princes Of Hell vs. the 7 Archangels of Heaven (from Catholic doctrine).

The "devils" are:
Lucifer - Pride
Mammon - Greed
Asmodeus - Lust
Satan - Wrath
Beelzebub (also called Baal) - Gluttony
Leviathan - Envy
Belphegor - Sloth

See, the problem is some of these "Lucifer" and "Satan" are traditionally "the devil" while others are certainly demons.

I suppose I need to make the choice that is most historically accurate.

Also, I agree about the art. It was the inspiration for the theme and is central for me.

What would be a reasonable price do you think for a game with over 200 cards that ships in a nice linen box? $20?

Also, I am a believer in early bird discounts. So for people who are involved on some level and provide feedback BEFORE I Kickstart, they get steep discounts. Some have given me grief for this, but it's how I feel. I see nothing wrong with giving early supporters a reward for backing early and helping a campaign get off to a good start.

 
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Robert Burke
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Ah.. well remember you are looking at a prototype I have made. I am not a graphic designer and do not claim to be. The end product will look much different (and better) once my designer does the card templates.
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Robert Burke
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LostRoom wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:


Thanks for the feedback. I accept that the theme will turn some people off. Heck, some fundamentalists won't listen to rock & roll too. But the whole mythology of demons and angels battling for human souls is something that really appeals to me, and the public domain artwork is stunning. Man has imagined this battle for eons and so a card game where you take part in it is at the heart of the idea. The art contained are all masterpieces from between circa 1500 and 1910. So the game will also second as religious art history flash cards. Not important, but cool if you're a fan of art.

If you are interested enough to follow the development blog I will be looking for play testers from those who are active. I will provide play test copies to those who commit to formal feedback and PNP copies for everyone else.

http://robertburkegames.blogspot.com/

At what price point would a card game of this size make a Kickstarter pledge a no-brainer for you?


Maybe it might be more appealing if each piece of art had a small text box with the artist and date. Just a thought.

I'll go subscribe, definitely curious to see where this game goes.

I think $30 would be a fair price. But production wise I'm not sure if having so many different fronts/backs printed would make that feasible.

I must say going from Cartoona to this design is pretty night and day though...ha.


Yes, the plan is to have every image include the artist name, painting title and year. I just wanted to get a playable prototype together quickly to get started.

And yes, I think I felt that I needed to prove I could do "grown up" games too. :-)

Battle For Souls ain't Cartoona 2 that's for sure!

 
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$20 definitely seems reasonable, but being able to playtest it with a PNP to check balance and entertainment seems like a must. Looks like it could be a lot of fun, but also seems like it could be a bit boring if playing certain hands is a dominate way to go and you're just sitting waiting for the right hand.
 
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chim007azo wrote:
$20 definitely seems reasonable, but being able to playtest it with a PNP to check balance and entertainment seems like a must. Looks like it could be a lot of fun, but also seems like it could be a bit boring if playing certain hands is a dominate way to go and you're just sitting waiting for the right hand.


I will absolutely make PNP version available before Kickstarting.

There are a lot of options every turn, so waiting for a hand is not really a problem. Building your hand is a viable strategy, but so is playing small hands and spending points on cards, or reaping as soon as you have an edge to try and end the game quickly.

Usually, these strategies change for you during the course of a game.
We will be play testing until we are sick of play testing...
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:

I think you may be correct that "demons" may be better. I will need to research and see which is more appropriate. The game actually uses the 7 Princes Of Hell vs. the 7 Archangels of Heaven (from Catholic doctrine).

The "devils" are:
Lucifer - Pride
Mammon - Greed
Asmodeus - Lust
Satan - Wrath
Beelzebub (also called Baal) - Gluttony
Leviathan - Envy
Belphegor - Sloth

See, the problem is some of these "Lucifer" and "Satan" are traditionally "the devil" while others are certainly demons.


Well, you run into the disconnect between basically known mythology and the deeper and more developed medieval and renaissance mythologies. I'd say that, given you are going with the more developed, you should stick with it and not dumb it down.

Quote:

What would be a reasonable price do you think for a game with over 200 cards that ships in a nice linen box? $20?


That would probably be a good price point for Kickstarter. I'd assume a higher price in stores, though you might not want to go much if at all higher than the Gryphon Games small box line.

It's not the same sort of gameplay, but you might want to take a look at The HellGame. It makes heavy use of the detailed mythologies about demons and devils.
 
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I would definitely support this. The theme, art, and play are all super! thumbsup

But, I'll tell you right now; I'd be quick to replace those dinky track markers with d8's right away. Two for each soul card -- a black one to track toward weakness and a white one to track toward virtue. And other dice (d6's?) can be used for tracking on some of the "specialty" cards. This could eliminate having tracks on the cards altogether.

Also, since the specialty cards can be purchased with points and various card hands, those specific card hands should be somehow notated on the back of each specialty card too.

For price, I think $30 would be fair. (Of course, if dice for tracking would be included, that could up it to about $40.)

I greatly look forward to its Kickstarter debut!
Best of luck!
 
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Gilby wrote:
[q="Tinyelvis"]
I think you may be correct that "demons" may be better. I will need to research and see which is more appropriate. The game actually uses the 7 Princes Of Hell vs. the 7 Archangels of Heaven (from Catholic doctrine).

The "devils" are:
Lucifer - Pride
Mammon - Greed
Asmodeus - Lust
Satan - Wrath
Beelzebub (also called Baal) - Gluttony
Leviathan - Envy
Belphegor - Sloth

See, the problem is some of these "Lucifer" and "Satan" are traditionally "the devil" while others are certainly demons.

Quote:


Well, you run into the disconnect between basically known mythology and the deeper and more developed medieval and renaissance mythologies. I'd say that, given you are going with the more developed, you should stick with it and not dumb it down.


I think I would be fine either way, especially considering that the two opinions I have received on this are different. I may ask this question more that it's been brought up here!

Quote:

What would be a reasonable price do you think for a game with over 200 cards that ships in a nice linen box? $20?

Quote:

That would probably be a good price point for Kickstarter. I'd assume a higher price in stores, though you might not want to go much if at all higher than the Gryphon Games small box line.


I will definitely try to keep the price down. Originally I wanted to do a full blown Euro-inspired game, but I had this mechanic kicking around in my head for a while and it works very well, not too mention will be much easier to produce and less expensive.
Quote:

It's not the same sort of gameplay, but you might want to take a look at The HellGame. It makes heavy use of the detailed mythologies about demons and devils.


Thanks, I'll check it out. Have you played it? Any good?
 
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rdsmith wrote:
I would definitely support this. The theme, art, and play are all super! thumbsup

But, I'll tell you right now; I'd be quick to replace those dinky track markers with d8's right away. Two for each soul card -- a black one to track toward weakness and a white one to track toward virtue. And other dice (d6's?) can be used for tracking on some of the "specialty" cards. This could eliminate having tracks on the cards altogether.


Thanks! I haven't even thought of using dice. Mostly because the track itself is a key visual cue that lets the user know which colors they need. I suppose I could have different color dice that you draw randomly? But then there would suddenly be a ton of components.

Check this out -- my brother-in-law mocked it up to track the soul cards.
Maybe a deluxe edition, or add-on?

Quote:

Also, since the specialty cards can be purchased with points and various card hands, those specific card hands should be somehow notated on the back of each specialty card too.


Yes, good suggestion. I also want to develop clear icons to use throughout and include rule cards. I am kicking around a mat or board idea, but need to keep scope creep at bay.
Quote:

For price, I think $30 would be fair. (Of course, if dice for tracking would be included, that could up it to about $40.)

I greatly look forward to its Kickstarter debut!
Best of luck!


Thanks again! Please follow the development blog if you have any interest, it's how I will inform people of a go live date and I will be offering substantial early bird discounts for early bidders.

And of course, I am looking for as many suggestions as possible.

 
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If there are only ever 3 souls in play a mat with 3 built in spin counters under each card space would do. Card backgrounds could be 2 toned and spinners could be grey for 0 then 1 to 8 in white in 1 directions and 1 to 8 in black in the other.
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
[q="Gilby"]
Quote:

It's not the same sort of gameplay, but you might want to take a look at The HellGame. It makes heavy use of the detailed mythologies about demons and devils.


Thanks, I'll check it out. Have you played it? Any good?


I have played it.

Define "good."

It's got some major random hosing going on, it's fiddly, it can run very long, it has other glaring flaws....yet it's very compelling and thematic. Good luck finding it, though. No one's been able to contact the designers in a few years and it's well out of the market. You might have to dig through the threads here on BGG to get any sort of useful info.
 
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chim007azo wrote:
If there are only ever 3 souls in play a mat with 3 built in spin counters under each card space would do. Card backgrounds could be 2 toned and spinners could be grey for 0 then 1 to 8 in white in 1 directions and 1 to 8 in black in the other.


That may be pretty cool. Would that be something you would want to pay extra cost for? Or is a more portable and less expensive game more appealing?
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
chim007azo wrote:
If there are only ever 3 souls in play a mat with 3 built in spin counters under each card space would do. Card backgrounds could be 2 toned and spinners could be grey for 0 then 1 to 8 in white in 1 directions and 1 to 8 in black in the other.


That may be pretty cool. Would that be something you would want to pay extra cost for? Or is a more portable and less expensive game more appealing?


I was thinking of something simple like these along the bottom



which I don't think would be too expensive. With some nice art I'd pay extra to not have to deal with tiny markers on the cards if that was the alternative.
 
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Tinyelvis wrote:
[q="rdsmith"]Thanks! I haven't even thought of using dice. Mostly because the track itself is a key visual cue that lets the user know which colors they need. I suppose I could have different color dice that you draw randomly? But then there would suddenly be a ton of components.

Check this out -- my brother-in-law mocked it up to track the soul cards.
Maybe a deluxe edition, or add-on?

Also, since the specialty cards can be purchased with points and various card hands, those specific card hands should be somehow notated on the back of each specialty card too.

Yes, good suggestion. I also want to develop clear icons to use throughout and include rule cards. I am kicking around a mat or board idea, but need to keep scope creep at bay.

And of course, I am looking for as many suggestions as possible.


I also went through the thought process of using a pointer mechanism, or dials, etc. But, my personal preference is still to use dice. Each soul card would only need to have a colored icon for its specific virtue and weakness, with a black or white d8 placed on the card to show its level. So, a multitude of colored dice would be unnecessary.

Plus, I envision cool custom dice, or a bunch of colored dice, that could be part of a Kickstarter bonus or goal incentive!
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Looking over this games theme gives me flashbacks of when I was designing Sinful Rummy. It used the 7 deadly sins, the 7 virtues, the 7 associated devils, and the 7 sacraments. I would have liked to continue development on it, but it just got pushed to the way side due to being burned out on Rummy-style games and I've lost contact with the person who was doing all of my graphic design on the game. It's good to see more people interested in making games around this theme. I wish you all the luck in the world should you decide to put this on kickstarter.
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