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Subject: Will a few zealots ruin this game for the rest of us? rss

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Team Ski
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I bought in on the kickstarter for this game because of how incredibly innovative it is. While I dislike CCG's, the core set looks like it has a lot going for it. This game has the potential to skyrocket quick drawing in a lot of different people as a Magic the Gathering on steroids. Now here is where I am worried about the future of the game.

This is the perfect game for a fringe element to show up, turn the game into some occult entity which ends up alienating the majority of people who want to enjoy the game as a game, and not some alternate lifestyle. Sorry if I am being presumptious, but I am already seeing some online chatter that is heading in that direction.

No, I am not some bible toting Christian or some bible dad going off on the evils of Harry Potter. Quite the opposite really. I am a beer and pretzel gamer hoping that Serpent Tongue grows a heathy level-headed fan base that doesn't turn a tournement into a occult retreat.

I have not seen a game like this ever.....

-Ski
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This is a valid concern Ski. At first, I had the same one myself. There are some people who seem more interested in grabbing high-level titles in order to gain metagame status among other players than they do with enjoying the game.

I have a somewhat similar experience with LARPs, some members of this board have convinced me that there are perfectly sane LARPs that are really enjoyable, but the two I visited contained players that were unconcerned with playing the game or telling stories and only with exercising dominating power and elitism. No one wants to join a game where someone who is angry at the real-world, sneers, jeers and mocks the new players who join 'his' kingdom.

Here is where I take heart: This happens in everything. Humans are naturally elitist. Look at soccer hooligans, call of duty video game players, high school cheerleading. Many humans naturally like to set up a situation where they are the dominant factor. The positive side of this is that not everyone is like this. Humans are also built to work together. There are many more people on earth who want to be inclusive than those who want to be sectarian.

I notice you're ex-AF, think about your time in the military, particularly around pilots...if they're like CND Rotor-Jocks, a select few really felt they were a level above and saw crews as their servants and treated the units on board like cargo...others really wanted to work with everybody and knew they were just one part of the machine. Which were more prevalent in your experience? I hope it was the later because that's more like what's really out there...but everyone tends to talk about how bad the pricks were... they get the publicity.

I remember when M:TG came out and there were those few people who spent $500 on cases of cards and then took great joy at the 'laughable' attempts other players made to defeat his ultimate decks. These players however don't work with others, and soon no one wanted to play with them. Does that mean M:TG died out? No, but the munchkins moved on. I take heart that ST will develop in the same manner. You're right, there will be some players who push it to the extreme - and that's ok, that's fun for them. But don't let them spoil your time, just come find the table where the rest of us play.

Make sense?
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agduncan wrote:

You're right, there will be some players who push it to the extreme - and that's ok, that's fun for them. But don't let them spoil your time, just come find the table where the rest of us play.
Make sense?


That was one well spoken response! You definitely hit the nail right on the head! And yes, I was a crew chief and dealt with premaddonnas. There were pilots with great attitudes as well, so you are spot-on with your assessment.

This game is a bit special though. There is one thing playing a MTG card; it is another reciting an incantation. Power through words can affect people in very tangible ways. I am waiting for some super-self-proclaimed-magi to stand up with his arms outstretched with a staff encrusted with glass beads from some local shop, to recite at the top of his voice some level 4 spell he spent the entire week memorizing, followed by an evil laugh that silences the room with a pregnant pause.

Sure that is stretching it a bit, but give it time. Serpent's Tongue, from what I see, is creating a convincing world that will make it easy for some lost souls to take it to heart. The rest of us will have to resume gaming after rolling our eyes. That said, a game that can release such passion is a special one indeed. Kinda like D&D back in the 1980's.....

-Ski
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Travis Bryant
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And a well-spoken response, Ski.

I share many of your concerns. I'm kickstarting and doing some low-level RP'ing in my Magi's persona on the forums because it's fun.

That said, I can totally see your scenario of the True Believer having his big spellcasting moment – to the horror and embarrassment of observers. Is it what the designers want? Nah. From the how-to-play videos I've seen, the team seems like very normal gamers who aren't trying to create a cult. They've gone in a cool direction with the game, but they aren't claiming it's a "new lifestyle based on actual rituals and traditions" or somesuch.

I'm an agnostically challenged Christian trying to ride the fine line between belief, fantasy, and logic. Games like this challenge me to say "I will play this, but I won't let it play me." Then I have to hope that maturity and experience keep me true to this declaration. Some folks may not have one or the other. I can't let them prevent me from enjoying a game, unless they are in my group. Then it's time for The Talk.

-Travis
- tensider
- Magi Decagos
(in that order)
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Team Ski
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tensider wrote:
Then it's time for The Talk.



"The talk" I love it. A great addition to the thread, thanks!

-Ski
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I think I found one Thread. Hmmm... the approach does concern me a bit. Using the game as a teaching aid for pagan practices is exactly what all the conservative parents always complain about regarding D&D. I'm agnostic, but I don't want anyone subverting a game I like for their own beliefs or to use as a tool for introducing faith. I posted my 2 cents, I suppose we shall see how this unfolds.

Edit - I we are talking about more in this thread than just paganism so I labelled it 'one' thread not 'the' thread.
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Magic Pink
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Yeah, I feel the same way. I want this as a game, not as an excuse to convince every one I'm a reel timez majishun omg but most of the various forums chatter is pretty annoyingly over-nerdy.

But that thread being referenced; no I don't see anything wrong with that at all.
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I'm going to have to disagree with tensider. For me, it isn't just the people who take it too seriously, but the whole way it is being packaged and sold. The designers are actively encouraging this behavior: see "becomemagi.com", just the name is somewhat there. I just got an email from the designer suggesting that I start to refer to myself as a magi around town and to point people at the website when they ask what the heck I'm talking about. Sure he had a '(LOL!)' after it, but it was disturbing nonetheless.

Like Teamski, I'm in this for a game. An interesting game, an unusually immersive and highly thematic game, but a game nonetheless. That's all. Not a LARP. Not an RPG. Not a lifestyle. I don't want a lapel pin. I don't want an identifying bracelet, be it hemp, leather or other. I didn't order a 4-player set so I could start a 'cabal' and get my own sub-forum and talk about it on their website and wage war against other cabals. I ordered a 4-player set so I could have a complete 4-player game that I could play with my usual game group while drinking down at the local gaming pub (Hey, I'm savvy enough to know I'll get looked at by 'normal' people the same way I look at the over-zealous types around here if I tried playing this in a normal pub). If I meet some other peeps who're into it, too, that's great, but the minute someone starts getting 'into character', I'm pretty much much done with them. The exception to this might be while playing the co-op Campaign, and to the same level as someone gets into character in a game of Descent, for example.

I realize this makes me sound somewhat of an asshole. Oh, well.
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I think a little slack can be cut for the designers in this regard. They are probably pressing their best advantage. The game is immersive and interactive and they are trying to promote that. I think the idea of become magi is the same as when a video game says become master chief, it's marketing. The idea that a bunch of gen-con'ers will be walking around calling each other Master X or Magi Y, is good publicity. They're selling more than a game, they're selling a fantasy.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to buy that fantasy, I just itch at crossover.

I honestly don't think you'll have a big problem with having people being really dramatic with a player they don't know. Go watch a video of a Con LARP... people don't get that excited or flamboyant, they just play the game; it's the magic players that are more likely to flip a table

As I stated in the beginning, my concerns are mostly mitigated; I'm just waiting to see how it will all play
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Tiwaz Tyrsfist
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While I know there will be an extreme few who basically fall down the crazy well and don't surface, it's been my experience that such people tend to congregate together on the basis that we "Just don't get it" and are "Ruining their fun", and at least in my personal dealings with this type of gamer, they will fairly rapidly separate THEMSELVES from the group of moderate (Sane) players, finding somewhere else to game with their small group of like minded friends.

They are the same ones who LARP'd Mage: The Ascention and get kicked out of IHOP at 4AM because their Vampire game started to scare the cooks. I know them and for my sins was part of their number back in High School.

Anyway, to try to stay on track here, with any game, there will always be "That Guy", the one who is WAY to into it. He, or she, will be loud, overly involved, and act in a manor that often makes you wonder if they REALLY have a firm grip on reality or not. But they show up in ANY game. I have seen more than one instance of person deploying the "Crazy Outburst" and causing the awkward silence during a game of Settlers of Catan (HA! ROBBER, F*** YOU! HA HA HA HA HA).


So, in short, Yeah their will be crazy people but there will always be crazy people in everything, and after a few weeks they will go off and be crazy together and leave the rest of us alone, mostly.
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TiwazTyrsfist wrote:

They are the same ones who LARP'd Mage: The Ascention and get kicked out of IHOP at 4AM because their Vampire game started to scare the cooks.


LMFAO!

Sorry, just the image of a Vampire Coven holding it's meetings in an IHOP tickled me something fierce. I suppose they couldn't go to the Denny's cause that was a Werewolf stronghold, lord knows the lycanthopes love them some moons over my-hammy!

One thing I will say is that there is no reason to label them crazy... as long as no one gets hurt everyone should have fun the way they want. I agree with you, everyone will find their comfort group and we will have some great gaming!
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Michael Russell
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Thanks Pink,
I am actually the creator of the thread that was mentioned and I by no means meant the game was religion or any such bull. Thanks for your understanding.
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freakman13 wrote:
Thanks Pink,
I am actually the creator of the thread that was mentioned and I by no means meant the game was religion or any such bull. Thanks for your understanding.


I understand that it was a simple unloaded question. Once religion is mentioned, it gets messy quick as you can tell.

Great exchange guys, I appreciate it. It is good to know that I am not the only one feeling the way I do towards ST. The game will be a truly unique experience for everybody so it will be extremely interesting to see where it goes from here. The only problem will be keeping a straight face if "Mage X" introduces himself as such with a derisive sneer......

-Ski
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Travis Bryant
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Thanks for the good counterpoints, quixotic.

Things I would do for the game:
- Do the verbal and somatic components during play. That's no different than doing acting and role-taking during a party game or RPG.
- Post in-character on a message board, but with a clear mindset of "in these kinds of threads I'm my mage dude and in these other kinds of threads I'm me." For example, I used an in-role tone when introducing myself to other people in my region. If I asked a question in the Rules forum, I'd post as tensider.
- Put the lapel pin on my bookbag strap when I'm at a convention, to say "Hey, I play this game. Challenge me to a duel."
- Play in an organized league, if folks in it were cool and not scary. Honestly, though, I don't have time for any group that met more than once every few months. Too much else going on in life. If that's not enough commitment, then I guess I don't need them.
- Introduce myself with my mage name to the designers at a convention, because they'd get a kick out of it. Then I'd introduce myself with my real name, so they know I'm not Scary Stalker Fan.
- Tell people who ask about the game what it's like, mostly using game-centric vocabulary ("It's like Magic: The Gathering, but with these gameplay differences....")
- Play the RPG, if they ever wrote one and it was decent. Or I'd steal the cool parts of the magic system they've already developed and wedge it in my current favorite system (Savage Worlds)

Things I won't do for the game:
- Wear the lapel pin any time when I'm not in full-on gamer mode (i.e. Real Life)
- Wear a ST-related bracelet or necklace of any material. Not gonna happen.
- Use my mage's name in Real Life conversations, or use anyone else's for that matter. If we're in the middle of a game, you can be Greenfire Soulbear. Once the game is over I will call you Dwayne, because that's your real name. I suppose that I might refer to someone who I knew only by their mage name (from the internet, for example) as such. This is no different than some of my Xbox Live friends who I only know by their online handles.
- Play in a ST LARP. Not my thing.
- Any marketing thing that seemed to indicate a devotion to the game beyond "This is a fun diversion."


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William Hensley
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Not much else to add to this thread, but I think that already some of you are taking this game too serious and I'm not talking about the role players. I don't think anyone has suggested lifestyle changes to play this game.

In reference to the bracelet that is getting a lot of flak, I don't see it any differently than I do the Mario keychain, Skyrim statuette, Harvest Moon plush, Legend of Zelda wii remote, Ghostbusters pre-order t-shirt, Go/Igo/Weiqi/Baduk bumper sticker, or any number of other things I have that identify me as a gamer.

If the idea that I might wear a bracelet to conventions, (not-so-)local tournaments, or the occasional visit to a game store that has upwards of 40 people playing games at a given time means it is a lifestyle change... I have news for you. I know men and women at my community college AND work place who have Triforce tattoos(three people), wear Nintendo controller bracelets(one person) and belt buckles(one person plus the aforementioned person) every day, have children named after video game characters(two people plus my brother), spend such a large amount of time on WoW, EVE, and League of Legends that it is discomforting to hear them talk about the game or what they spent their time doing outside of class/work(most of the male demographic at the college and a plant manager.)

That being said, we cannot control how people play, interpret, and participate with ST or any other form of entertainment. There will be those who carry a codex all the time so they can study their spells in their spare time (a little disturbing maybe) or just in case they run into someone to play. Then there will be those sad individuals who start wearing robes and carrying a staff while loudly proclaiming their titles and accomplishments to people standing in line at Starbucks. The only thing going for society at large, is that the latter most likely will not procreate.
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randraug wrote:
That being said, we cannot control how people play, interpret, and participate with ST or any other form of entertainment. There will be those who carry a codex all the time so they can study their spells in their spare time (a little disturbing maybe) or just in case they run into someone to play. Then there will be those sad individuals who start wearing robes and carrying a staff while loudly proclaiming their titles and accomplishments to people standing in line at Starbucks. The only thing going for society at large, is that the latter most likely will not procreate.


Great response! I think the discussion we are having is, in a way, a method to prepare mentally for those who will take the game too far. Now that the title of Magi and Master are already being used, you know damn well that those titles will mean a lot more to some people than what is considered healthy. From what I see in the thread, those people will likely be a small minority and I certainly hope that is the case.

I am really excited about ST as a game. It has so much going for it. I can see myself as one of those people carrying around the codex trying to remember the incantations. This game is a lot like studying for a test!

-Ski
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Teamski wrote:
Great response! I think the discussion we are having is, in a way, a method to prepare mentally for those who will take the game too far. Now that the title of Magi and Master are already being used, you know damn well that those titles will mean a lot more to some people than what is considered healthy. From what I see in the thread, those people will likely be a small minority and I certainly hope that is the case.

I am really excited about ST as a game. It has so much going for it. I can see myself as one of those people carrying around the codex trying to remember the incantations. This game is a lot like studying for a test!

-Ski


I agree with everyone saying that of course there will be some who take it too far... like everything in life. I think the titles are cool - within the context of a game environment. I'm at GenCon and run into a fellow ST gamer I know from online and they refer to me as Magi then that is kind of awesome imo. I'm shopping in Whole Foods and someone calls me Magi... not so much. Same with the pin. I don't intend to wear it to school when I am teaching. That would be odd. But at a game convention to advertise I would play the game I see it no different than having a ButtonMen button on my bag so people know I play and am willing to have a quick spontaneous game.

The naming convention is also funny to me because there will be people (I imagine) that I only call by their online handle because that is how I know them. I am in a video game clan that plays on Xbox Live. We all go by gamertags in game. Now I know their real name, but in games we still use the tags. We have meetups a couple times a year and the one I went to was super amusing. Everyone started out trying to use real name: "Hi Scott, you are Unclegramps? I'm xmiyux, or Ryan" After like 10 minutes of talking we naturally reverted to gamertags because that name was the one we associated with that voice and person. The real name was rarely used.

But as for too far... Like anyone who is kind of socially awkward and uncomfortable I will be polite and then vacate the area. Whether they are talking about a sport about which I know nothing, ST, or breeding show cats.
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I remember my first experience with "those guys," actually my first two. My first with a D&D guy who swore up and down he was a "dragon rider." Unfortunetly he was my roommate in band camp. :\

After ignoring him for a bit I finally put my foot down and had a "talk" with him. It helped that if he was going think he was a dragon rider without his dragon I must have been a barbarian without my sword. I think he ran the numbers and realized he was on the losing end of any such encounter and left me be.

The second encounter I had was a Nan Des Con in Denver. My friend warned me about the Vampire LARPers who were "obfuscating" or whatever. I wasn't supposed to see them so they got REALLY pissed off if you did. So I figured I'd "play along" with them and walked right through a pair. They weren't dodging people they were assuming we'd all "see" them so I didn't. I was also about twice their combined weight and blew right through them.

Seriously though my past encounters aside the "crazies" will always be with us, it's up to us "normals" to keep them in check, or at least make sure outsiders realize they're not the majority so don't label us with the crazy sticker.
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Hey, Travis, sorry for singling you out with my rant, in any fashion. I really didn't mean to make anyone, including you, feel the need justify to the world your life in a list like that.
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GozerTC wrote:
The second encounter I had was a Nan Des Con in Denver. My friend warned me about the Vampire LARPers who were "obfuscating" or whatever. I wasn't supposed to see them so they got REALLY pissed off if you did. So I figured I'd "play along" with them and walked right through a pair. They weren't dodging people they were assuming we'd all "see" them so I didn't. I was also about twice their combined weight and blew right through them.


LOL!!!!

-Ski
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If the lapel pin looks cool I may leave it on my jacket or something. I tend to like things that don't scream out what they are rederencing; I find they make nice conversation pieces.

Of course, most places I go are populated with non-gamers.
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quixotic wrote:
Hey, Travis, sorry for singling you out with my rant, in any fashion. I really didn't mean to make anyone, including you, feel the need justify to the world your life in a list like that.


No sad emotes necessary. It's good to sometimes have one's beliefs challenged, and to state them in public.
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Teamski wrote:
I bought in on the kickstarter for this game because of how incredibly innovative it is. While I dislike CCG's, the core set looks like it has a lot going for it. This game has the potential to skyrocket quick drawing in a lot of different people as a Magic the Gathering on steroids. Now here is where I am worried about the future of the game.

This is the perfect game for a fringe element to show up, turn the game into some occult entity which ends up alienating the majority of people who want to enjoy the game as a game, and not some alternate lifestyle. Sorry if I am being presumptious, but I am already seeing some online chatter that is heading in that direction.

No, I am not some bible toting Christian or some bible dad going off on the evils of Harry Potter. Quite the opposite really. I am a beer and pretzel gamer hoping that Serpent Tongue grows a heathy level-headed fan base that doesn't turn a tournement into a occult retreat.

I have not seen a game like this ever.....

-Ski


As someone that actually is really interested in researching in the occult, and practices a degree of mysticism myself, I'd say that any serious occultist or spiritualist wouldn't be so naive as to somehow champion or display their occult dealings by using a CCG, of all things.

That said, I could easily see these sorts of show-off types loving ST. Reminds me of when I was in high school, how there were a clique of "goths" that carried around copies of The Book of Nod (a fictional RP supplement for Vampire the Masquerade RPG) as though it were a real tome of ancient knowledge LOL. To the people that didn't know any better, I suppose they got the attention they so desperately desired, but, ironically, the "geeks" that roleplayed (myself included) couldn't help but laugh at them.

More on point, I'm with the OP in hoping this doesn't become something embarrassing to be a part of because of a vocal and flamboyant minority.
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agduncan wrote:
I think I found one Thread. Hmmm... the approach does concern me a bit. Using the game as a teaching aid for pagan practices is exactly what all the conservative parents always complain about regarding D&D. I'm agnostic, but I don't want anyone subverting a game I like for their own beliefs or to use as a tool for introducing faith. I posted my 2 cents, I suppose we shall see how this unfolds.

Edit - I we are talking about more in this thread than just paganism so I labelled it 'one' thread not 'the' thread.


I couldn't agree with you more. (I'm LS Jeffries on the ST forums btw).

It's one thing to be attracted to the ST theme due it relating to real life pursuits, but it is quite another to think it could or should be used in any manner aside from playing a fun card game (and eventually a roleplaying game).
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qaesyan wrote:

More on point, I'm with the OP in hoping this doesn't become something embarrassing to be a part of because of a vocal and flamboyant minority.


I think this is the rub, the very root. No one wants someone to say "oh wait, you're one of those guys who shouts at each other in the coffee shops"

HOWEVER,

I think we've shown that our fears are largely being mitigated by the astounding number of people who are so intrigued by this game that they take the time to be concerned by such things. I for one am well satisfied that the game will have an extremely accessible player base rather than an exclusive one!
 
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