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Subject: Just a warning, 2nd edition print quality. rss

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The Dave
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
wow...whoever is printing for Lookout/Z-Man is getting ready to start losing business (or they should be).

Walnut Grove.
Ora & Labora
and now Le Havre...

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Jason Carlough
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
My copy is fine...
 
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Hanno Girke
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
danmanpro wrote:
I was happy to have received my copy of Le Havre today and was quickly saddened when I realized that more than half of the printed chits were misaligned prints

This quality stinks! absolutely not impressed, especially with a 2nd edition print. Unacceptable!

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if anyone would know who I can contact to resolve this.

Thanks!


The overall quality of that print run was excellent. I'm sorry to read that your copy didn't match our quality standards. If posible, please send us some pictures of your misaligned sheets that we can forward to the manufacturer. The eMail address is office@lookout-games.de. Please don't forget to mention your street address so we can send you replacement sheets.
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David Anderson
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.

Are they still using three separate boards?
 
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Jason Carlough
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
My chits were also a little bit off center but that has always seemed to me to be just how chits usually are.
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Ron Z
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
No problems at all with my copy....
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David Boeren
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Re: Just a warning 2nd edition print, terrable quality.
My copy is fine too.

OK, so at least one bad copy exists. But there's a huge leap from that to claiming that all of them are terrible. Might want to ease up on the sensationalistic headlines there.
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KC Skedzielewski
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I think 1 or 2 of my sheets were off. Not so bad that they are unusable, but the interior square is almost at the edge of the chit.
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Nate Milbrath
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My copy was perfectly fine if that helps any.
 
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Brendan Daly
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My copy's fine too.
 
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Lisa
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Mine is in excellent condition.
 
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Dan Dolan
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I don't have a copy. But I'm ok with that. I'm fine, thanks for the concern.zombie
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Chris Wood
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Phlegm wrote:
I don't have a copy. But I'm ok with that. I'm fine, thanks for the concern.:zombie:

*hug*
 
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Kevin J
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I have a poorly aligned copy as well. I was tempted to not punch any to take pictures, but I so badly wanted to play the game today!

It's a bit disappointing that I spent about $10 more than Agricola would have cost at the same retailer, while Agricola has tons of wood components versus Le Havre which has only 6 sheets of cardboard and much fewer cards.

When I have a free moment perhaps I'll take pictures of my components and send to Lookout. Perhaps Canada got a bum shipment! cry
 
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dyvim tanelorn
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I received my copy tonight and my tiles are really off centered (this is a scan that I took as example):



I'll write to receive a substitution as it is written in this thread (I think that they will hate me thinking I am a pain in the ass, I also wrote today for a donation regarding the promo cards :( )...
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Hanno Girke
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Tanelorn wrote:
I received my copy tonight and my tiles are really off centered (this is a scan that I took as example):



I'll write to receive a substitution as it is written in this thread (I think that they will hate me thinking I am a pain in the ass, I also wrote today for a donation regarding the promo cards )...


Sorry guys, but this is not considered to be off-centered by the manufacturers.
Manafacturers ask for a 3mm 'frame', as with mechanical lining, counter-lining and cutting, an offset/skew of up to 1mm each may happen. 3 steps, total of 3mm. If they fail that margin, they have to redo/send replacements.

You can see this in our graphic design: All game relevant information on the counters have been put on the crate label; the crate background is just filling.
Your tile sheet seems to be off to the right by 2mm.
The replacement sheets I have here are similar.

And no, that's not a quality issue. This is the standard margin the industry needs. If you buy an egg size L at the store, you will get one between 63 and 73 grams. Average will be 68... but you won't get replacements from your egg dealer if the eggs will be 64, 66, 67, 67, 68, 68, 70, 70, 71, 71. If you want eggs with exactly 68 grans, you need to find someone who does sort the eggs manually, not mechanical. And that person will charge you double, as manual work costs more than mechanical.
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David Anderson
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Hanno wrote:
Tanelorn wrote:
I received my copy tonight and my tiles are really off centered (this is a scan that I took as example):



I'll write to receive a substitution as it is written in this thread (I think that they will hate me thinking I am a pain in the ass, I also wrote today for a donation regarding the promo cards )...


Sorry guys, but this is not considered to be off-centered by the manufacturers.
Manafacturers ask for a 3mm 'frame', as with mechanical lining, counter-lining and cutting, an offset/skew of up to 1mm each may happen. 3 steps, total of 3mm. If they fail that margin, they have to redo/send replacements.

You can see this in our graphic design: All game relevant information on the counters have been put on the crate label; the crate background is just filling.
Your tile sheet seems to be off to the right by 2mm.
The replacement sheets I have here are similar.

And no, that's not a quality issue. This is the standard margin the industry needs. If you buy an egg size L at the store, you will get one between 63 and 73 grams. Average will be 68... but you won't get replacements from your egg dealer if the eggs will be 64, 66, 67, 67, 68, 68, 70, 70, 71, 71. If you want eggs with exactly 68 grans, you need to find someone who does sort the eggs manually, not mechanical. And that person will charge you double, as manual work costs more than mechanical.


I understand this is in your manufacturer's tolerance, but do you consider these to be off center? I work in manufacturing and 100th of an inch is considered a lot in my industry (these appear to be off by much more than that). This would bug the crap out of me.
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Jason Carlough
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turtleback wrote:

I understand this is in your manufacturer's tolerance, but do you consider these to be off center? I work in manufacturing and 100th of an inch is considered a lot in my industry (these appear to be off by much more than that). This would bug the crap out of me.


I don't work in the industry but it's pretty much par for the course of games I have purchased. My house tiles in Agricola aren't any better.
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David Anderson
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jasoncarlough wrote:
turtleback wrote:

I understand this is in your manufacturer's tolerance, but do you consider these to be off center? I work in manufacturing and 100th of an inch is considered a lot in my industry (these appear to be off by much more than that). This would bug the crap out of me.


I don't work in the industry but it's pretty much par for the course of games I have purchased. My house tiles in Agricola aren't any better.


To be fair, I work with CNC machinists who manufacture parts for me. Tolerances need to be pretty tight for components to fit properly. These jump out to me as being misaligned. Maybe people that don't work with tight tolerances won't notice these are off center.
 
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Jason Carlough
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turtleback wrote:
[q="jasoncarlough"][q="turtleback"]
To be fair, I work with CNC machinists who manufacture parts for me. Tolerances need to be pretty tight for components to fit properly. These jump out to me as being misaligned. Maybe people that don't work with tight tolerances won't notice these are off center.


Everybody realizes they are off center. The point is that like it or not, off center is standard for this kind of manufacturing, at least in the hobby boardgame industry.
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David Anderson
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jasoncarlough wrote:
turtleback wrote:
[q="jasoncarlough"][q="turtleback"]
To be fair, I work with CNC machinists who manufacture parts for me. Tolerances need to be pretty tight for components to fit properly. These jump out to me as being misaligned. Maybe people that don't work with tight tolerances won't notice these are off center.


Everybody realizes they are off center. The point is that like it or not, off center is standard for this kind of manufacturing, at least in the hobby boardgame industry.


I don't know if I believe that. If off center is standard I would say that is a bad practice. I'm glad my first edition chits are not so misaligned.

 
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David Anderson
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Oh, by the way. This is all academic. I'm glad this game has been reprinted. I love, love, love this game! Don't let a millimeter or two offset your enjoyment of this really great game.
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Chris F.
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Regarding the quality of game components, I see myself (and sometimes others) falling somewhere on a spectrum between:

- functionalism: the game pieces exist primarily as a means to keep track of the details of an abstract contest; they are judged only by the clarity and completeness of the information they convey
and
- fetishism: the game pieces are an end themselves, a kind of mass-produced art; they are judged not only by the criteria above, but also by their conformity to a (necessarily flawed) ideal: the perfect specimen of a specific game system at a specific point in time

While I'm quite sure lots of folks buy and play games and don't think much about these things, off-center tiles will bother a fetishist while a functionalist might say the tiles work "just fine".

I tend more toward the fetishistic end of the spectrum. Off-center tiles scratch at my attention, while centered ones blend in and provide the sense that all is right (with this tiny part of the world).

All that said, I agree with David that off-center tiles shouldn't stop someone from enjoying the game. My Agricola tiles aren't centered, and I still manage to farm with them.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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turtleback wrote:
To be fair, I work with CNC machinists who manufacture parts for me. Tolerances need to be pretty tight for components to fit properly. These jump out to me as being misaligned. Maybe people that don't work with tight tolerances won't notice these are off center.


There are many reasons why you can't compare different industries with each other. You need to take into account at least these:

- number of items manufactured: the higher the number, the lower the price per item, so more freedom to add cost by increasing accuracy

- subjective tolerances: a machine part must have high accuracy or either it won't fit at all or put people at risk; slightly mis-aligned chits for a board game won't hurt anybody (but your OCD)

- business size of the ordering company: if you've got a small business running, you might need to save costs on various ends to stay in business, while a big company can invest more

We're talking here about board games for geeks. How big is that market? If 5,000 or even 10,000 copies of Le Havre have been reprinted (I don't know any numbers, so take these as wild guesses), this still is way less than a car company ordering a part to be manufactured a million times.

BTW, I too do not like misaligned tiles, but looking at the picture I can't see what people are complaining about. These look perfectly fine.
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dyvim tanelorn
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The game is playable and if I cannot have a replacement I can play anyway (altough I admit I am a little fetishistic and I suffer a little from this). Anyway I don't know how the Manufacturer can say to Lookout that those tiles are not off centered: look at the right and down side of the tiles, the "rectangular white part" that should be in the center (or the money) is completely shifted, almost to the right and down border, to me is obvious that it is really bad centered (and not just a little bad centered... if you click on the image and look in the big size image is really evident).
"Le Havre" is great and I love it anyway (I bought it after having played with the copy of a friend, I liked it so much that I also ordered the promos), everybody should play it also if they are OCD like me because it deserves to be played.
But, to be honest I hope that in future Lookout will print
games from a better manufacturer, and it is not completely true that the boardgame standard is this. I have many other games and while tiles are always a little disaligned, it never is so much. I have only one other game with a similar big issue in the print (no problem to say what: "Through The Ages, the cards were off centered similar to these tiles) and they sent a replacement.
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