Marc P
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...so why does the Obama administration have to scramble to clarify his (Biden's) position? It seemed pretty damned clear to me. Is he not allowed to have his own feelings on these issues? Personally, I have no problem with my president and VP having differences of opinion on the odd issue, as long as they generally work as a team.
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Election year controversy, they are not on the same wavelength.

The are not on the same WAVELENGTH.

Only one heart beat away people.

ONLY ONE HEART BEAT AWAY!!!!
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Marc P
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Well, that suggests the question, "Is JB going to be the VP on the ticket?".
 
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Marc P
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Erp, now Arne Duncan is out as a wholehearted supporter! What will the president do?

A: speechify, temporize, and put it off until after the elections.
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Kelsey Rinella
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slowcorner wrote:
What will the president do?


Sign all relevant legislation that congress sends him.



soblue
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Chad Ellis
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I think this is pretty straightforward. Obama has concluded that his optimal position on same-sex marriage is "like civil unions with all the rights, don't agree with same-sex marriage, evolving on the issue". It's close to where a lot of voters are, it leaves the left flank nowhere to go (although they can certainly complain) and it gives him room to support it a few years from now. (Don't expect a change in the first year of his second term, should he win one.)

My best guess is that in private Obama supports same-sex marriage although it's entirely possible that he really does think civil unions are sufficient. But the political calculus seems to be what's driving the outward positions.
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Christopher Dearlove
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For a comment on the subject, it's hard to beat this one from Stonewall:

"Our strong advice to anyone who disagrees with same-sex marriage is not to get married to someone of the same sex."
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Mike Waleke
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What is the difference between a marriage performed by a judge, and a civil-union with all the same rights/benefits as marriage? They just seem like synonyms with a slightly different connotation. Is there something I am missing?
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Damian
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madmanw wrote:
What is the difference between a marriage performed by a judge, and a civil-union with all the same rights/benefits as marriage? They just seem like synonyms with a slightly different connotation. Is there something I am missing?

What's the difference between water fountains for black people and water fountains for white people? They're both ceramic fixtures that spray water.
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Mike Waleke
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damiangerous wrote:
madmanw wrote:
What is the difference between a marriage performed by a judge, and a civil-union with all the same rights/benefits as marriage? They just seem like synonyms with a slightly different connotation. Is there something I am missing?

What's the difference between water fountains for black people and water fountains for white people? They're both ceramic fixtures that spray water.


So are you saying the whole reason Obama supports one and not the other is to discriminate?
 
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Chad Ellis
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madmanw wrote:
damiangerous wrote:
madmanw wrote:
What is the difference between a marriage performed by a judge, and a civil-union with all the same rights/benefits as marriage? They just seem like synonyms with a slightly different connotation. Is there something I am missing?

What's the difference between water fountains for black people and water fountains for white people? They're both ceramic fixtures that spray water.


So are you saying the whole reason Obama supports one and not the other is to discriminate?


No. Just as there were people back in the day who honestly thought segregation was good for blacks and whites, a lot of people have bought into the idea that creating a parallel legal status for the sole purpose of not using the word "marriage" for gay unions isn't inherently discriminatory. I think a lot of people advocating civil unions do so out of good will; I just think they're wrong.
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Mike Waleke
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So then as it is being proposed only gays would be allowed to join in civil unions?
 
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I have a feeling that Joe "wasn't" going to be on the next ticket, and now if he isn't picked it'll look bad thinking they got rid of him because of this issue.
 
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madmanw wrote:
So then as it is being proposed only gays would be allowed to join in civil unions?


Mike, I'm not sure why you're putting words into people's mouths rather than replying to the actual points they've made.
 
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
madmanw wrote:
So then as it is being proposed only gays would be allowed to join in civil unions?


Mike, I'm not sure why you're putting words into people's mouths rather than replying to the actual points they've made.


I am not responding to points, I actually don't know, hence my original question.

(Specifically I was curious if the civil unions had the same immigration benefits)
 
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Chad Ellis
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madmanw wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
madmanw wrote:
So then as it is being proposed only gays would be allowed to join in civil unions?


Mike, I'm not sure why you're putting words into people's mouths rather than replying to the actual points they've made.


I am not responding to points, I actually don't know, hence my original question.

(Specifically I was curious if the civil unions had the same immigration benefits)


No one can know for sure, but in practice the answer seems to be no. Some states (e.g. New Jersey) have implemented civil union laws but they have generally failed to provide the intended legal benefits. A state's civil union laws would not have any immigration benefits unless and until a federal law decided that they would. Then again, at the moment even marriage doesn't confer immigration benefits for a same-sex couple. (I have a Canadian friend who recently got her green card on the basis of her work experience and unique skills...under her lawyer's advice she did not volunteer that she was married to a U.S. citizen since for her it might have been an impediment. For my wife, of course, it meant virtually automatic green card.)

More generally, "separate but equal" is inherently unequal. If they were truly equal there would be no need to create a new legal status that attempts to give identical legal rights under a new name. The only reason to do that is that a large chunk of people do not consider same-sex unions to be equal and thus oppose calling them marriages.
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Mike Waleke
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Thanks for the info. It is kinda crap that even same-sex marriage doesn't currently help with immigration. If you can't get the federal government to fully recognize a marriage that a state approved of then what is the point of our current political system?
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Rich Shipley
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madmanw wrote:
Thanks for the info. It is kinda crap that even same-sex marriage doesn't currently help with immigration. If you can't get the federal government to fully recognize a marriage that a state approved of then what is the point of our current political system?


This is why DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) needs to go. That is what is preventing the feds from recognizing what the states are doing.
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Obama should just sack up and say he is for it too. The position against it is undefendable if you believe in equal rights for all citizens. Either that or start a platform to have the federal government not recognize marriage at all as it is a religious-based notion.

My problem with Obama is that when it comes to taking a stand on things like this that I would like a liberal Dem should be all over he loses his spine and plays for the middle and then comes across as flip-floppy.

-M
 
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malloc wrote:
Either that or start a platform to have the federal government not recognize marriage at all as it is a religious-based notion.


This has always struck me as a total non-starter. Marriage is certainly a religious ceremony but it has also been a civil ceremony (and civil contract) effectively forever. To try to dismantle that seems both impossible and a gigantic "fuck you" to homosexuals.

Quote:
My problem with Obama is that when it comes to taking a stand on things like this that I would like a liberal Dem should be all over he loses his spine and plays for the middle and then comes across as flip-floppy.


Unfortunately it's pretty well-established that what you gain by taking a stand on hot-button issues is overbalanced by what you lose, at least politically. I'd love for Obama to speak clearly in favor of same-sex marriage but it's not going to happen any time soon.
 
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It seems a little ironically named in that the states already approved them as being Married. It reminds me of when you are playing a game for the first time and you play what you think is the winning hand and then the guy who owns the games says "oh I forget to tell you that if I am holding this card when you play those I win instead of you".
 
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Shane Yeager
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My church calls them married, why not the state? Same marriage ceremony as straight couples, what's the problem with calling them what they are?
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