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Subject: Question concerning "Change of plans" rss

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Wolfram Troeder
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In the discussion of the strategy advice a question about the "Change of plans"-intrigue card came up.
As the discussion is somewhat hidden by the original thread header, I just wanted to make it more public.
Please see the thread, if you are interested.
Basic strategy


 
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Chad Miller
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The card specifically says that it includes MQs.

EDIT: oh, nvm, I hadn't read all of the followup yet. Mandatory quests are quests, so I had always assumed that parenthetical was a clarification meant to imply "Yes, MQ's count" and not actual rules text necessary to make it work, much like Magic: The Gathering's reminder text. So I'd still go with "yes"
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SlebRittie wrote:
The card specifically says that it includes MQs.

EDIT: oh, nvm, I hadn't read all of the followup yet. Mandatory quests are quests, so I had always assumed that parenthetical was a clarification meant to imply "Yes, MQ's count" and not actual rules text necessary to make it work, much like Magic: The Gathering's reminder text. So I'd still go with "yes"


I don't see why everyone wouldn't be able to discard MQs. I get that it says "You", but based on how every other card in the game works, if it were going to exclude other players, it would have to say it. Until WotC says otherwise, we will continue to play it with everyone discarding.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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Because MQs are Intrigue cards, not quests.

As non-active player discarding a MQ for 3 VPs is way overpowered. MQs go only up to 4 VP and to discard one without the prerequisites, thus getting 3 VP and the choice of my quests back and having not even have to place an agent and playing a card is against common sense.
 
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Chad Miller
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They are not quest cards, but they are quests. They even call themselves quests in their own card text.

And how is it overpowered to get to remove a negative effect when an opponent voluntarily plays a card?
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Wolfram Troeder
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I do not bite.

I am waiting for an official answer. And until that, it is my game and I play it according to the text on the card.
 
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Chris Berger
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Wolfram wrote:
I do not bite.

I am waiting for an official answer. And until that, it is my game and I play it according to the text on the card.


You're playing according to your interpretation of the rules on the card, but I maintain that there's no logical way to arrive at that interpretation. That is - there is nothing to say that an opponent cannot discard a Mandatory Quest.

Permissive reminder text that could be read to only include you doesn't imply restrictions on others. (I agree that the parenthetical text is ambiguous - when reading a card, "you" generally applies to "me". While the English "you" can be an inclusive plural, that's not really a natural interpretation when reading card text. However, a) since the card is telling everyone to do something, "you" could be interpreted as meaning everyone, and b) nothing in the card or the rules says that players couldn't discard a Mandatory Quest, regardless of who the reminder text applies to.)
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S K
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The trick of the interpretation is the parentheses. It is a clarification, not a statement of a rule. Thus the plural "you" would be the default way of reading it based on the rest of the card, and the theme of all of the other cards, and all other WotC cards that I know of, not the singular "you".

The official rules even state that when you play a card you are to read it aloud. When reading a "you" to a group of players, it certainly sounds like you are addressing them all.

Feel free to play it however you like, but I don't know that there is much evidence that it means the singular interpretation.
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Ray Abbey
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Wolfram wrote:
I do not bite.

I am waiting for an official answer. And until that, it is my game and I play it according to the text on the card.


Not a big deal, and you are right, it is your game and you can play it however you want, but why then make another thread to make it more public if no matter what anyone says you would just stick to your guns?

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Wolfram Troeder
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It was strange to see a different playing practice as I think the text is quite clear and I just wanted to know the reasons why people misunderstood the text and to warn others of this trap.
To engage in semantics was the least I had in mind, so I stopped my contribution to the meta debate.

IMO if the card is played that all can discard MQs makes it way weaker for the player and way to strong for the others. Therefore this interpretation is supported neither by the text nor by the game balance.


Still I think the dispute should be solved, by an official ruling.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Wolfram wrote:
IMO if the card is played that all can discard MQs makes it way weaker for the player and way to strong for the others. Therefore this interpretation is supported neither by the text nor by the game balance.


But you're never forced to play CoP card until only you have a MQ hanging around your neck. Why play the card if it'll allow others to discard a MQ, play it when only you have one.
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Chad Miller
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Wolfram wrote:
To engage in semantics was the least I had in mind, so I stopped my contribution to the meta debate.


The less charitable version of this statement would be "I didn't actually want to have a discussion about rules, I just wanted people to tell me I'm already right."

I do agree this is worth putting in the FAQ though.
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Frankly, your way does not make sense to me. There are parentheses around the part that is the key factor for your interpretation when in normal English, parentheses would be used simply for clarification (like this). But you don't need to look at all of the English language, let just look at the rest of the Intrigue cards with parentheses:

Real Estate Deal - Discard a Building under your control that currently has no [agent] assigned to it. Then choose 1 Builder in Builder's Hall and put it in play under your control at no cost. (Replace that Building afterward.) Parentheses used as clarification/reminder.

Summon the Faithful/Request Assistance/Research Agreement/Recruit Spies
Take [various cubes] from the supply and place it/them in your Tavern. Each opponent can choose to give you [that color] once to score [some points]. (Place it in your Tavern.) In all 4 cases, the parentheses are used as a clarification/reminder.

Change of Plans
Discard an uncompleted [quest]. Score 6. Each opponent can choose to discard an uncompleted [quest] to score 3. (You can discard a Mandatory Quest in this way.) You claim it is a rule rather than a clarification, but it would be unique in that respect.

Not only are all other uses of parentheses used as clarification, they are just reminders that should be obvious to someone that knows the rules. In the case of Change of Plans, the reminder is that Mandatory Quests are still quests... it is right in their name.

Your only defense of your reading is that it makes Change of Plans too weak? Every Intrigue card barring the MQs is weak, and a card that would weaken MQ's only serves to balance that, so I don't see how that would prove your point.

That said, continue playing however you choose, it does not affect me in any way. However, I am 100% certain that when the official ruling comes out, the above interpretation will prove correct.
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Kirk Monsen
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Wolfram wrote:
It was strange to see a different playing practice as I think the text is quite clear and I just wanted to know the reasons why people misunderstood the text and to warn others of this trap.


I take this to read that you are saying your interpretation is correct, and everyone else is misunderstanding the text.

Should I point out that only you have this interpretation? And all other posts (and thumbs supporting posts) are towards the other interpretation?

-Munch "that implies you are the one misunderstanding the text, and not everyone else" Wolf
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Wolfram Troeder
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MunchWolf wrote:

I take this to read that you are saying your interpretation is correct, and everyone else is misunderstanding the text.

Should I point out that only you have this interpretation? And all other posts (and thumbs supporting posts) are towards the other interpretation?

-Munch "that implies you are the one misunderstanding the text, and not everyone else" Wolf


I was wondering why other interpreted it differently when to me the text was unambiguous.

And sofar only badlogik's contribution was able to make a valid point concerning the text.
But I still think the return of this card for the opponents in most cases is much higher than for the owner of the card as an intrigue card (2VP) and an agent (4 VP) is double the loss of 6 vs 3 VP.

Corncerning thumbs: I also thumb good contributions opposing me and thumbocraty is not a guarantee for getting the facts right. "You can not vote on the law of gravity."
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How exactly do you get that Agent cost? You always have a second action when using Intrigue cards or drawing them. They are almost free.
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Wolfram Troeder
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Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...
 
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Wolfram wrote:
Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...


Playing an intrigue card does not cost 1 placement, because you get the agent back at the end of the turn. I don't think anyone really has a good formula for the cost of delaying an agent until the reassignment phase, but it would depend on whether you played your first, second, etc... agent there.
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Wolfram wrote:
Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...


Erm, none of those are equal to 4 VP. 1 cleric is worth 1, 2 fighters are worth 2, and 4 gold are worth 2. Who came up with these significantly wrong valuations?
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Chad Miller
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arkayn wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...


Playing an intrigue card does not cost 1 placement, because you get the agent back at the end of the turn. I don't think anyone really has a good formula for the cost of delaying an agent until the reassignment phase, but it would depend on whether you played your first, second, etc... agent there.


Also depends on what round it is. The cost of playing in the Harbor steadily decreases as buildings are built, until increasing a bit when everyone gets their extra agent.
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Chad Miller
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SparkingConduit wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...


Erm, none of those are equal to 4 VP. 1 cleric is worth 1, 2 fighters are worth 2, and 4 gold are worth 2. Who came up with these significantly wrong valuations?


It isn't an endgame scoring thing, it's an "estimate of how much you could get through these resources by completing quests with them". It's an early-game valuation yardstick.

ie if 2 clerics were just as good early game as 2 rogues, the Plinth would be awful
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SlebRittie wrote:
SparkingConduit wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
Jahannan wrote:
... As has been stated elsewhere, the equivalency is as follows:

1 placement = 1 Cleric = 1 Wizard = 2 Fighters = 2 Rogues = 2 intrigue cards = 4 Gold = 4 VP

...


Erm, none of those are equal to 4 VP. 1 cleric is worth 1, 2 fighters are worth 2, and 4 gold are worth 2. Who came up with these significantly wrong valuations?


It isn't an endgame scoring thing, it's an "estimate of how much you could get through these resources by completing quests with them". It's an early-game valuation yardstick.

ie if 2 clerics were just as good early game as 2 rogues, the Plinth would be awful


It's a nice idea, but it doesn't always work out that way. Honestly, the Plinth kind of is awful; few 25 point Arcana or Piety quests will be completed if there is not at least one other building providing wizards/clerics in play. Once there is one, the value of clerics/wizards skyrockets. This isn't as readily the case with rogues and fighters, who start out more valuable at the beginning but become less so by game's end. All I was trying to say is that even if those values did hold, they wouldn't do so for much more than maybe one round of the game.
 
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Karl von Laudermann
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Wolfram wrote:

I was wondering why other interpreted it differently when to me the text was unambiguous.

Your attitude seems to be "why is everybody else wrong, when my interpretation is obviously correct?". It reminds me of a quote:

"Everyone is stupid, except me." - Homer Simpson

BTW, a lot of us are also wondering why you are misinterpreting this unambiguous text.

Quote:
Corncerning thumbs: I also thumb good contributions opposing me and thumbocraty is not a guarantee for getting the facts right. "You can not vote on the law of gravity."

We're not discussing a law of nature, we're discussing the meaning behind words written by a human being who was trying to convey an idea. It's not unreasonable to assume that the way the majority of English speakers interpret an English sentence is most likely the intended meaning behind that sentence.
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"was" is past.
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SlebRittie wrote:
They are not quest cards, but they are quests. They even call themselves quests in their own card text.


This. A mandatory quest is an "Intrigue Card" while being in the Intrigue deck, it is also an "Intrigue Card" while being in a player's hand, but as soon as it hits the table it is a "quest".
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