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Subject: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge, but re-pledged again rss

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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Update (for those not wanting to read the whole thread):
In update #33, SJG acknowledged their error, and honoured what they had originally said, as well as generously lowering shipping in some other cases. I have happily re-pledged, and after negotiating with my wife, I've been allowed to put the pledge on her credit card until I can afford it, and have increased it to $374 (for extra shirts and stuff) - 78% more than originally pledged. My faith in SJG is completely restored, and I am happy to support this project.
(End of update)

Ogre update #13:
Quote:
We have already posted free-shipping offers on dice, shirts, and pins for overseas supporters who are paying shipping for something else (i.e., a game, or another dice/shirt/pin). We will honor those orders.

Then Ogre update #30 wrote a lot about international costs for extras, which caused me to send this query:
Quote:
Does the latest update with international shipping boxes mean that the free shipping on extra dice is no longer being honoured? I've pledged $210 for game + 3 sets of extra dice... do I need to change that?

I quickly received the following reply:
Quote:
That is correct. I'm afraid you'll need to add another $17 for one of the small international shipping boxes. Sorry!

-Fox Barrett
Ogre Correspondent

... which - apart from the fact that I do not have $17 extra in my account, as my economy has to be carefully planned - I found highly insulting. I therefore cancelled my pledge and sent them the following message:
Quote:
Back in update #13, it was said:
"We have already posted free-shipping offers on dice, shirts, and pins for overseas supporters who are paying shipping for something else (i.e., a game, or another dice/shirt/pin). We will honor those orders."

... since you are no longer willing to honour those orders, I am no longer willing to honour my pledge to you.

Frankly, I have been a fan of Ogre and SJ Games for decades, own several older editions, multiple copies of most of them, and was very much looking forward to this one. I was proud to support it through kickstarter despite how expensive being an international supporter was, and did so with no hesitation, as this project has been something I've been waiting for years to actually become realized.

But a company that can stop honouring its previous promises that easily is no longer a company that I desire to support. I am extremely disappointed and sad. Please pass my disappointment on to those people that made this decision. As much as I regret it - I am sure the game will still be excellent - I have now cancelled my pledge.
 
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The Real Stabliser
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
Well, instead why not kickstart for $1 plus this:

http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/OGRE-Designer-s-Edition...

If you really want the extra dice use your $1 pledge to get extras from w23

That is if you can get over the feeling of being so let down.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
Yeah, I will still get the game once it reaches local game shops. Definitely. (Two copies probably - that was my original plan, one copy through kickstarter and one through local shops.)

But that means most of my money going to shops / distributor chain, etc., instead of SJ Games... part of the reason why I originally was willing to pay that much extra (and customs fees) was knowing that I directly supported a company I had long been a fan of (... despite their recent Munchkin focus), and a product line I had also been a long-time fan of.
 
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
unic wrote:
I quickly received the following reply:
Quote:
That is correct. I'm afraid you'll need to add another $17 for one of the small international shipping boxes. Sorry!

-Fox Barrett
Ogre Correspondent

... which - [...] - I found highly insulting.

Wait a minute, which part of that reply was highly insulting!?
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Tom
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
unic wrote:
Ogre update #13:
Quote:
We have already posted free-shipping offers on dice, shirts, and pins for overseas supporters who are paying shipping for something else (i.e., a game, or another dice/shirt/pin). We will honor those orders.

Then Ogre update #30 wrote a lot about international costs for extras, which caused me to send this query:
Quote:
Does the latest update with international shipping boxes mean that the free shipping on extra dice is no longer being honoured? I've pledged $210 for game + 3 sets of extra dice... do I need to change that?

I quickly received the following reply:
Quote:
That is correct. I'm afraid you'll need to add another $17 for one of the small international shipping boxes. Sorry!

-Fox Barrett
Ogre Correspondent

... which - apart from the fact that I do not have $17 extra in my account, as my economy has to be carefully planned - I found highly insulting. I therefore cancelled my pledge and sent them the following message:
Quote:
Back in update #13, it was said:
"We have already posted free-shipping offers on dice, shirts, and pins for overseas supporters who are paying shipping for something else (i.e., a game, or another dice/shirt/pin). We will honor those orders."

... since you are no longer willing to honour those orders, I am no longer willing to honour my pledge to you.

Frankly, I have been a fan of Ogre and SJ Games for decades, own several older editions, multiple copies of most of them, and was very much looking forward to this one. I was proud to support it through kickstarter despite how expensive being an international supporter was, and did so with no hesitation, as this project has been something I've been waiting for years to actually become realized.

But a company that can stop honouring its previous promises that easily is no longer a company that I desire to support. I am extremely disappointed and sad. Please pass my disappointment on to those people that made this decision. As much as I regret it - I am sure the game will still be excellent - I have now cancelled my pledge.


Not defending SJ directly, but I don't think they had a clue how this game was going to take off. I just got a copy of another Kickstarter game that many were amazed they got $35k plus to fund their project.

I think the lesson here is don't promise anything because it you do get all these extra perks it may cost more. I think post 13 assumed very few extras were going to be included, and by 30 it was definitely understood that things were getting out of control. I means seriously, Car Wars is next based on the response...who would have predicted that?

I understand your position and I empathize but I can see both sides.
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Philip Reed
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
I am sorry that you feel this way. Please keep in mind that we're overwhelmed by the response and trying to deal with thousands of forum posts, Kickstarter comments, e-mails, and personal messages. Not to mention the phone calls (which, for me, have stopped while I am out of the country).

I promise you that if we have said something then all you need to do is direct us to our earlier statement and we will do our best to honor that. Sometimes information changes and something falls out of our control, but if we can solve a problem then we will. And if we are unable to follow through on something that we thought we could then we will explain why and do our best to come as close to our original idea as possible.
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Jason Clubb
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Re: SJ Games not honoring its word - why I cancelled my $210 pledge.
Keep in mind people, Kickstarter is going to have some hiccups like this until those involved have some experience with issues that are going to come up. I am sure that when the Car Wars KS project goes down, there will not be issues such as this as SJ Games is going to learn how to handle it.

Ola, please work with SJ Games and see if you can get things worked out to a mutual benefit. I am sure that Steve and Phil want your support and this sort of thing was bound to happen at some point. I am sure they can work with you.

 
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
PhilReed wrote:
I promise you that if we have said something then all you need to do is direct us to our earlier statement and we will do our best to honor that.

Yeah, after a bit back-and-forth on the kickstarter page, this is the latest response from SJG:
Quote:
Thanks. I see what you mean, because when you point to it, it's crystal clear what it says. And it is not what I thought I had posted, or what I told Fox the deal was, so nuke me, not Fox. I think I had better nap before I post how I think we should fix it, and I'm going to post a PROPOSED fix and let you people troubleshoot it.

I can easily see how things have become confused - and, while still feeling disappointed by how things might or might not work as originally said (especially as I am unable to pledge $15 or $17 extra for shipping on the dice, as my budget for the month was planned around what had originally been said, and at this point, there is no extra money in my account), I am glad to see dialogue happening and acknowledgement that the free dice shipping at one point was promised.

I fully understand that this has been a crazy month for SJG - I thought this kickstarter would go big, but I don't think anybody expected quite this level of response - and it is easy to say things and forget exactly what has been promised earlier in all this chaos and excitement. I also guess my original message was on the strong side, from being used to customer services that aren't very responsive at all (... e.g. today, I finally, after 8 months of waiting and multiple messages back and forth, got replacement pieces from FFG for some broken minis... and yet, next to computer games companies, FFG have very good customer service!). It's also a learning process - I bet for Car Wars, they will have thought international pledges through much more thoroughly before the campaign starts.

Depending on what happens next, I might renew my pledge (still would like to get those kickstarter exclusives). If they insist on charging the shipping for the dice that was not there originally, I will remain highly disappointed to miss out on the extra dice... but might pledge for only the game. (And regardless of whether I get it through kickstarter or wait for shops to get it in, I will definitely get the game. Ogre! Need to add it to my old small plastic boxes of Ogre / Gev / Shockwave / Reinforcement pack, my Ogre Deluxe, my Ogre / Gev minis, my Ogre books...)
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Michael Wheal
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
If they really can't fix this to your satisfaction...

Send me $22 and I'll add the 3 dice packs to my pledge and mail you them in an envelope when the time comes. I figure $4 should cover postage.


(currently shipping the game to Swedon, Norway, UK, and Brazil.. with swag to even more... )
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Philip Reed
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
unic wrote:
I bet for Car Wars, they will have thought international pledges through much more thoroughly before the campaign starts.


Absolutely. We are planning to design the box size to fit the largest USPS flat rate package. Every lesson learned with Ogre will be applied to Car Wars. And at all levels! At one of the factory visits yesterday Car Wars came up . . . but we quickly switched back to discussing Ogre.

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Andrew Walters
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).

Funny thing was I was just looking through the Kickstarter page today and thinking about all the possible support levels and combinations possible, the changes as goodies have been added, and the fairly limited means of indicating what you want (so far) and wondering how the folks in Austin were going to stay on top of it all. They need to make sure that at least most of these things break even or better. They've been changing things pretty quickly. I be we all get a square deal in the end, but there's going to be some confusion along the way. No one knew two weeks ago that there would be four shirts, a mini version, miniatures, and who knows what else involved. Remember when they were only going to print maybe three thousand? Now they're fifty percent past that without any for retail or Warehouse23. The could end up with twice the original print run. Plus canvas bags. Crazy.
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Jeff Wood
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
PhilReed wrote:
I am sorry that you feel this way. Please keep in mind that we're overwhelmed by the response and trying to deal with thousands of forum posts, Kickstarter comments, e-mails, and personal messages. Not to mention the phone calls (which, for me, have stopped while I am out of the country).

I promise you that if we have said something then all you need to do is direct us to our earlier statement and we will do our best to honor that. Sometimes information changes and something falls out of our control, but if we can solve a problem then we will. And if we are unable to follow through on something that we thought we could then we will explain why and do our best to come as close to our original idea as possible.


I'm sorry, but even as not a backer of this project, I have to ask: why is this the backer's problem?

Yours is the company making promises, and apparently having a memory lapse, for whatever reason, as more promises are made.

Do better. Or expect far more caution in future such projects by people with the money you want.

'Nuf said?

 
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Cinnibar wrote:

I'm sorry, but even as not a backer of this project, I have to ask: why is this the backer's problem?



I did not mean to imply any wrong doing or point blame at him. This is clearly a mistake on our part. If my post even sounded like I was trying to say he did something wrong then all I can say is:

* That was not intended.
* I blame exhaustion due to two days in China that felt like two weeks. Or maybe two years. I can't decide.
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).

On a semi-related note it's nice to see gamers helping gamers and that at least one UK store is selling the game.

Now if it were the KS edition I'd be tempted to zero my pledge and go the FLGS route... but meh, why not let the government and postal supplier hoover up all my cash, it'll be a learning experience for the counter sheets and expansion.
 
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Keith Carter
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
MWAlbion wrote:
If they really can't fix this to your satisfaction...

Send me $22 and I'll add the 3 dice packs to my pledge and mail you them in an envelope when the time comes. I figure $4 should cover postage.


(currently shipping the game to Swedon, Norway, UK, and Brazil.. with swag to even more... )


Unic - My former Cannon opponent and the creator of the Cannon database program. I would like to take this opportunity to do something to your gaming benefit.

MWAlbion - would you accept the $22 from me? I would send it to you tomorrow without waiting to see how SJG works this out.

--Keith
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Michael Wheal
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Sure - Geekmail me if you need to.
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Cinnibar wrote:
PhilReed wrote:
I am sorry that you feel this way. Please keep in mind that we're overwhelmed by the response and trying to deal with thousands of forum posts, Kickstarter comments, e-mails, and personal messages. Not to mention the phone calls (which, for me, have stopped while I am out of the country).

I promise you that if we have said something then all you need to do is direct us to our earlier statement and we will do our best to honor that. Sometimes information changes and something falls out of our control, but if we can solve a problem then we will. And if we are unable to follow through on something that we thought we could then we will explain why and do our best to come as close to our original idea as possible.


I'm sorry, but even as not a backer of this project, I have to ask: why is this the backer's problem?

Yours is the company making promises, and apparently having a memory lapse, for whatever reason, as more promises are made.

Do better. Or expect far more caution in future such projects by people with the money you want.

'Nuf said?



Wow. I have no idea how you could have possibly interpreted anything Phil said as putting blame on the customer.
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
unic wrote:
But that means most of my money going to shops / distributor chain, etc., instead of SJ Games...


I don't think there's anything wrong with this, either. By buying SJG and other hobby games at your local game store, you're keeping them in business and supporting the hobby, including getting SJG games into international stores.

Unfortunately, thanks to Amazon and those darn OLGS's, we're used to low shipping rates. But Kickstarter's showing us that only such retailers can provide these rates. A good number of KS projects have had shipping issues with international supporters and I hope KS finds a good solution. Once companies larger than SJG start using KS, they're going to need one.
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Michael
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
@Ola:

SJ posted a note on the KS comment section about 4 hours ago with a somewhat detailed solution to reconcile shipping and honor past postings, based on your initial comment. From what I can tell, he is basically bending over backwards with this. I am hopeful that you realize very few companies, if any, would help out their customers like this.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Tennberg wrote:

I am hopeful that you realize very few companies, if any, would help out their customers like this.

Yeah, I posted this over there as my response:
Quote:
That sounds great to me - point (2) covers what was said in update #13, and the rest is generous to everybody. If this becomes real, I will definitely and happily re-pledge. Anybody can make a mistake, especially in a chaotic project like this with updates and changes happening every day - and I really appreciate honouring what had been promised, even if it was by mistake.

Faith in SJG restored for me :)

As soon as they make that draft suggestion official, I will (with delight) re-pledge my $210.

I want to be an Ogre backer.
I want to support SJ Games.
I want to keep believing that they are one of the good companies out there.

... now, that Car Wars kickstarter coming up... if only I had somebody to play Car Wars with... hmm, kickstarter going up in 2013 - that gives me at least 7 months to catch up with how Car Wars have changed since the 80's, and to train the wife.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Bounder wrote:

Unic - My former Cannon opponent and the creator of the Cannon database program. I would like to take this opportunity to do something to your gaming benefit.

Keith, seems like this won't be needed, but thank you very much for the offer.

What's up with the Cannon tournament this year? Not that I am wanting to participate (this year)... but is there not going to be one? Seems a shame for that annual tradition to fall.
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Slev Sleddeddan
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
nightglider1 wrote:
Wow. I have no idea how you could have possibly interpreted anything Phil said as putting blame on the customer.


I can, but only as I run the customer service department (amongst others!) at work.

About 10% of people have a particular mindset when it comes to blame and responsibility, and it can lead to conclusions like this that make no sense to the rest of us.

If you explain everything in terms that accommodate this mindset, no-one else notices. Those with the mindset feel accommodated and happy. However, it's so alien a way of thinking to most people that you have to train yourself into it.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
In their update #33, SJG acknowledged the problem and solved it, while also being generally generous to international purchasers of extra stuff:
Quote:
Reduced Shipping Costs

Having created a serious “bug” while announcing international Extras shipping, I will try to correct my error. [...]

Pleased with this resolution, I have re-pledged, and am once again happy to be an Ogre supporter. I have also negotiated with my wife, and she's allowed me to use her credit card temporarily, thus enabling me to afford a bigger pledge and more extras. So, I'm now in for $374, barring any last-minute adjustment of what t-shirts / other extras to get.

I'm pleased with the way SJG handled this. Anybody can make a mistake, especially in such a chaotic (and time-pressured) situation as this, but they have definitely done their best to not let their fans suffer from it, and to live up to their original promises.
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).
Slev wrote:
nightglider1 wrote:
Wow. I have no idea how you could have possibly interpreted anything Phil said as putting blame on the customer.


I can, but only as I run the customer service department (amongst others!) at work.

About 10% of people have a particular mindset when it comes to blame and responsibility, and it can lead to conclusions like this that make no sense to the rest of us.

If you explain everything in terms that accommodate this mindset, no-one else notices. Those with the mindset feel accommodated and happy. However, it's so alien a way of thinking to most people that you have to train yourself into it.


I've done some retail CS, and am glad I have never encountered such a customer!
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Re: Kickstarter confusion - why I cancelled my $210 pledge (but might re-pledge).

See if you can re-title the thread. That would be cool.
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