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Subject: Is pledging on Kickstarter equal to buying? A few thoughts about customs declaration rss

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Arrrrr'lex
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Hi! Regarding the following statement in an Ogre Kickstarter Update:
Quote:
We are getting the inevitable suggestions that we should understate the value of international shipments, or misrepresent the contents on customs forms. One word: No.
I realized, that I will have to pay about 20% on the price for the game + shipping (adding nearly another 40$). Wow. This is a lot.

BUT: I read on another Kickstarter page, that pleding for them is not buying. And the game send after a successful kick-starter is a gift in gratitude for your backing of the project. Following this philosophy (which kind of makes sense, as Kickstarter is NOT an online shop) It would make it a lot more attractive for international backers to support projects.

The thoughts of the community about this? (and perhaps Mr Reeds also?)
 
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Thomas Staudt
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I fear trying these subtleties on a customs officer will not be very successful.

They are getting sooooo many packages labelled as "gifts" and discover a bill when opening them that it will be hard to convince them, especially if it is sent from a company address.
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Derry Salewski
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Anything I buy isn't a purchase, it's just a gift in response to my donating money to someone's business.

I mean, go ahead and ask your government about this one, but I'm pretty sure I know what they'll say.

So with that in mind, you're just asking a legitimate company to flout the law (someone else's law, that they might not care much about, but it's a law regardless.)

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Thomas Staudt
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scifiantihero wrote:
... someone else's law ...


I'm pretty sure writing wrong information on postage labels on purpose is also illegal in the US ...
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Andrew Walters
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I agree with the previous two posts.

I also suspect that if there is a distinction in some countries there might not be in others. Similarly, the amount of trouble you get into varies.

Bottom line, it's quid pro quo. If you contribute/donate/pledge/spend/pay a certain amount, you *will* get certain goods in return. If you do not pledge, you will not. It's not a drawing, it's not a charity. It's business in a different format.

Be thankful we're not paying duties and taxes on the PDFs. In another decade we probably will be.
 
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Derry Salewski
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ashman wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
... someone else's law ...


I'm pretty sure writing wrong information on postage labels on purpose is also illegal in the US ...


Yes, but the people who care are someone else's law.
 
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Derry Salewski
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andreww wrote:

I agree with the previous two posts.

I also suspect that if there is a distinction in some countries there might not be in others. Similarly, the amount of trouble you get into varies.

Bottom line, it's quid pro quo. If you contribute/donate/pledge/spend/pay a certain amount, you *will* get certain goods in return. If you do not pledge, you will not. It's not a drawing, it's not a charity. It's business in a different format.

Be thankful we're not paying duties and taxes on the PDFs. In another decade we probably will be.


I'm sure some sort of tax money goes to the bandwidth required to receive them!
 
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Also it is worth pointing out that from the outset, SJG has stated that they are using Kickstarter as a pre-order system for Ogre, thus you are making a purchase regardless of what the normal Kickstarter terms mention. Otherwise, as previous posters have mentioned feel free to argue the case with your local customs officials.
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Arrrrr'lex
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Karlsen wrote:
Also it is worth pointing out that from the outset, SJG has stated that they are using Kickstarter as a pre-order system for Ogre...


Okay, I overlooked this information in my enthusiasm and also when making the pledge I forgot about the customs cost. Now I have cancelled my pledge, as no game is worth nearly 200€ (in my opinion, of course, others surely have differing views ).
 
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Customs don't care if it's from Kickstarter or a prize for winning a BGG comp or something exciting from your uncle Joe in the US


HMRC Website wrote:
2.4 Gifts

Goods sent as a gift that are over £40 in value are liable to import VAT. Customs duty also becomes payable if the value of the goods is over £135 but is waived if the amount of duty calculated is less than £9.



This is, Of course, For the UK only but I'd guess most EU countries have wording like it.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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Alex40K wrote:
Karlsen wrote:
Also it is worth pointing out that from the outset, SJG has stated that they are using Kickstarter as a pre-order system for Ogre...


Okay, I overlooked this information in my enthusiasm and also when making the pledge I forgot about the customs cost. Now I have cancelled my pledge, as no game is worth nearly 200€ (in my opinion, of course, others surely have differing views ).


This is why my pledge will not include a game. I'm getting that from my FLGS.
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Alex40K wrote:
Karlsen wrote:
Also it is worth pointing out that from the outset, SJG has stated that they are using Kickstarter as a pre-order system for Ogre...


Okay, I overlooked this information in my enthusiasm and also when making the pledge I forgot about the customs cost. Now I have cancelled my pledge, as no game is worth nearly 200€ (in my opinion, of course, others surely have differing views ).


Well the game is worth the same, you just get the added benefit of not only supporting the Kickstarter campaign, but supporting your local economy with a generous donation through your customs organization!
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Pete Hooper
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
Ah, lying on customs forms and then trying to justify it. Good times.

Reminds me why I stopped all international sales (eBay, Amazon, here, any other place I've sold goods) more than 10 years ago.


The only place I've had to completely refuse to ship is Brazil. Too many packages mysteriously get lost by their postal service.
 
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Hegel Bessa Jorge
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I ordered many times (over 20) from the US and never had a problem of not receiving the games/books/other stuff. But sometimes the customs take a long time to release the items. It happened to me twice and they spent almost a month with the items.
 
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Qthulhu Fhtagn
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There are such things as nil value items, and (in the UK) Customs WILL phone you to ask what exactly your nil value item is.

I speak from experience (got a free item once with one of my international purchases).



As for OGRE... I'm torn between going with $192 for the game or looking for a decent online alternative and W23-ing the extra gubbins
 
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The Real Stabliser
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Qthulhu wrote:
As for OGRE... I'm torn between going with $192 for the game or looking for a decent online alternative and W23-ing the extra gubbins


Try:

http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/OGRE-Designer-s-Edition...

Its still a pre-order and you still don't know how much it will finally cost you, but its somewhere that you can pin down a non-KS Ogre in the UK.
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Just a comment on the "200€" figure: the value of the game is officially $100 USD. I don't know if customs cares about the cost of shipping or not, but I expect that at least from an import duty standpoint they shouldn't, since the shipping cost isn't actually a tangible item. Not that it makes having to pay those taxes any less annoying, but you might find that the amount they tax you on is less than you realize. Of course, if you've got lots of extras coming too you'll have to pay for those separately...
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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stabliser123 wrote:
Qthulhu wrote:
As for OGRE... I'm torn between going with $192 for the game or looking for a decent online alternative and W23-ing the extra gubbins


Try:

http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/OGRE-Designer-s-Edition...

Its still a pre-order and you still don't know how much it will finally cost you, but its somewhere that you can pin down a non-KS Ogre in the UK.


My FLGS have promised me a copy, and it apparently WILL be cheaper than from Kickstarter and by a significant margin, so I can justify ordering the extras.
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Arrrrr'lex
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offsides wrote:
Just a comment on the "200€" figure: the value of the game is officially $100 USD. I don't know if customs cares about the cost of shipping or not, but I expect that at least from an import duty standpoint they shouldn't, since the shipping cost isn't actually a tangible item. Not that it makes having to pay those taxes any less annoying, but you might find that the amount they tax you on is less than you realize. Of course, if you've got lots of extras coming too you'll have to pay for those separately...


As I recently learned this is (sadly) not true. German customs charge for the whole bundle, including posting/package. So for me it is (nearly) 200€ to lay my hands on the kickstarter edition. Which is just too much (for me).
 
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