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Subject: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield not involved rss

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Eugene
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The original announcement thread is getting a bit overwhelming, so I'd like to ask this question in its own thread: Is Richard Garfield involved in this new FFG update of Netrunner?

Edit: Changed to subject line to reflect the now confirmed status.
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Matt Shinners
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
garygarison wrote:
The original announcement thread is getting a bit overwhelming, so I'd like to ask this question in its own thread: Is Richard Garfield involved in this new FFG update of Netrunner?


I have no proof. However, the cards all have a WotC copyright, and I find it hard to believe that they'd do something that he didn't approve of, considering that his M:TG is by far their largest source of income.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Either that, or he's disinterested as to its future outcome. I could see that.

But per the point you make above, I don't think they'd actively oppose his wishes.

He could simply be disinvested in the game by now, and bow to the economic considerations by which WotC chooses one offer over (say) another.

I'll be interested to hear any official word. That would speak well of FFG, and of the coming game.
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Duncan Anderson
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
I asked Richard Garfield this question on his blog, this is his reply

Quote:
Fantasy Flight is publishing a new version of Netrunner, a stand alone game rather than a trading card game. I am not involved with the design – Fantasy Flight offered to involve me but the time frame seemed too tight. I have not yet seen the design though it has been described – and based on its description and Fantasy Flight’s excellent handling of many classic games, I am sure it is in good hands.


http://www.threedonkeys.com/blog/archives/722#comments

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Eugene
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Richard Garfield wrote:
I am not involved with the design

Well, I guess that answers it.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Quick, and straight from the horse's mouth—thanks!

The blurb for FFG ('I'm sure it's in good hands') I read as standard boilerplate. No one would say otherwise even if he was sure the game wasn't in good hands. I couldn't begin to guess Richard's actual opinion of FFG's past reprints, good or bad. Indeed, it may be very good. Just hard to sift the wheat from a standard press-release-speak. I'd be happy if he's happy with what they're doing with it.

So I guess we'll all have to wait and see, and judge for ourselves. It's a shame he's not involved, though.
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Eugene
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
HuginnGreiling wrote:
It's a shame he's not involved, though.

Yes, yes it is. My enthusiasm has noticeably dipped with this revelation.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
I'm very glad they offered to involve him, though. That indeed speaks well of FFG.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
garygarison wrote:
HuginnGreiling wrote:
It's a shame he's not involved, though.

Yes, yes it is. My enthusiasm has noticeably dipped with this revelation.

Uh-huh. I worry we'll be seeing more standard LCG + branding and less of the original magic on this run.

Not that FFG just magically sucks, but they're not Richard, and he was the muse behind the game we know.
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Matt Shinners
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
HuginnGreiling wrote:
garygarison wrote:
HuginnGreiling wrote:
It's a shame he's not involved, though.

Yes, yes it is. My enthusiasm has noticeably dipped with this revelation.

Uh-huh. I worry we'll be seeing more standard LCG + branding and less of the original magic on this run.

Not that FFG just magically sucks, but they're not Richard, and he was the muse behind the game we know.


The other thread has some playtesters who are huge fans of the original, and they say the changes are minor (one has a reservation about a certain mechanic that he can't disclose). That makes me feel like the game is closer to the original than it is dissimilar.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Yeah, I saw those comments, too. As I mentioned in the other thread, this is what I'm hoping for re: FFG's version.
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Duncan Anderson
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
If they were developing the game in too tight a time frame for Garfield to become involved, I'd imagine they wouldn't want the changes to be too radical.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Wobbles wrote:
If they were developing the game in too tight a time frame for Garfield to become involved, I'd imagine they wouldn't want the changes to be too radical.

Good point. It could also be that they make changes better left unmade, without the time to properly understand their ramifications. But we have indications from the playtesters that this is not largely the case.

Anyway, this is quite the year of FFG reprints—Nexus Ops, Rex, Merchant of Venus, and now Netrunner. Did I miss any?
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Eugene
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
I mentioned this is the announcement thread, but Richard Garfield has stated many times that Netrunner really wasn't best suited to the CCG format, that it possibly should have been released as something more approximating a boardgame. If he were involved in this new update, perhaps his informed and idealized vision of NR could come into being. As it stands, without Garfield's involvement, this now seems highly doubtful.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
garygarison wrote:
I mentioned this is the announcement thread, but Richard Garfield has stated many times that Netrunner really wasn't best suited to the CCG format, that it should have possibly been released as something more approximating a boardgame. If he were involved in this new update, perhaps his informed and idealized vision of NR could come into being. As it stands, without Garfield's involvement, this now seems highly doubtful.

Yes. This is in great part what is driving my disappointment at this new revelation. I'd have liked to have Richard's Netrunner 2.0, as he envisioned.

Perhaps FFG wasn't interested in going that direction. Certainly LCGs seem to be a very profitable model for them.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
HuginnGreiling wrote:
Yeah, I saw those comments, too. As I mentioned in the other thread, this is what I'm hoping for re: FFG's version.


From the press release, it's still on good grounds. I'm eager to see more...


Speaking of RG, while it would be amazing to have him working on it, I don't think it's strictly necessary.

Taking, for example, MtG: the initial sets that RG was involved with, had major imbalance issues. Of course that could mean it was just a lack of vision of what the game would become and how stuff would interact with each other. I know he worked on some of the newest sets, but since I don't play it anymore, I can't attest to it.

On the other hand, WotC did a pretty solid job of getting the game balance in. Of couse that, with over 500 new cards being released a year, something would slip by (hence, the banlist), but all in all, it became a much better game.

Of course, I think RG has some great ideas for the games. His thing really is creating the game. Keeping it and inserting refreshing new ideas is way easier than to create a full ruleset.

Being that, I'm hoping that FFG keep up with the spirit of the game and that the changes are for the good.
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Matt Shinners
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
endou_kenji wrote:

Being that, I'm hoping that FFG keep up with the spirit of the game and that the changes are for the good.


I didn't play the CCG, but from what I can tell the changes they made to A Game of Thrones LCG were for the good (balancing well). Hopefully, that translates.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
endou_kenji wrote:

Taking, for example, MtG: the initial sets that RG was involved with, had major imbalance issues. Of course that could mean it was just a lack of vision of what the game would become and how stuff would interact with each other. I know he worked on some of the newest sets, but since I don't play it anymore, I can't attest to it.


It's been a really long time so I can't be sure I'm right, but I think he said at one point, pretty early on, that he didn't realize how popular the game would turn out to be.

He envisioned a card like Ancestral Recall actually being rare and only owned by maybe 1 or 2 people in a playgroup. What ended up happening is people would buy multiple booster boxes (36 packs in a box) and you'd see many decks with 4 of them (before they got restricted).

So I do think he got the vision a little wrong, but it would have been pretty arrogant and presumptive of him to believe that the game would become so popular that people would spend multiple hundreds of dollars on cards just to make a single deck.

If you are speaking more broadly, I think with the exception of Library of Alexandria, nothing from the early sets got put on the restricted list, so I think the balance was pretty good. If anything, in those early sets there were a lot of useless tournament cards that were still ok or good for more casual/theme decks.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
HuginnGreiling wrote:
Wobbles wrote:
If they were developing the game in too tight a time frame for Garfield to become involved, I'd imagine they wouldn't want the changes to be too radical.

Good point. It could also be that they make changes better left unmade, without the time to properly understand their ramifications. But we have indications from the playtesters that this is not largely the case.

Anyway, this is quite the year of FFG reprints—Nexus Ops, Rex, Merchant of Venus, and now Netrunner. Did I miss any?


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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
Richard Garfield by way of Wobbles wrote:
Fantasy Flight offered to involve me but the time frame seemed too tight.

This, all by itself, worries me.

A three card limit imposed on the game is a pretty dramatic change as well.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
sdiberar wrote:
A three card limit imposed on the game is a pretty dramatic change as well.


Based on this statement I'll assume you never played this way, but for most of my Netrunner career, we played in friendly local tournaments with a 45 deck minimum and a 3-card maximum. It was a pretty standard format for the game, although certainly not official.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
radynski wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
A three card limit imposed on the game is a pretty dramatic change as well.

Based on this statement I'll assume you never played this way, but for most of my Netrunner career, we played in friendly local tournaments with a 45 deck minimum and a 3-card maximum. It was a pretty standard format for the game, although certainly not official.

Well, the game wasn't originally designed for a limit. Such a limit kills a couple of popular and intended deck archetypes (Bozomatic being the most notable).

They would definitely have a PR problem if there was no card limit, I admit that. But it's still a net loss for the design itself.

Quote:
However, I suppose that changes to the original, besides the setting change, are unavoidable. Game design has changed dramatically in the past 16 years, and straightup reprints may make a game seem outdated.

Except, except, except... isn't the original game the one that everyone was clamoring for? The one that was the consensus best CCG ever for so long? Given the "short timeframe" mentioned above, did they even test reprinting the game straight up? I don't see how change is "unavoidable", as if FFG have a gun to their heads.
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
RG wrote:
...and based on its description and Fantasy Flight’s excellent handling of many classic games, I am sure it is in good hands.
Translation: "FFG's check has cleared, so I got my money, and now I don't give a hoot what they do with it!"


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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
sdiberar wrote:
Richard Garfield by way of Wobbles wrote:
Fantasy Flight offered to involve me but the time frame seemed too tight.

This, all by itself, worries me.

A three card limit imposed on the game is a pretty dramatic change as well.


Two years is too tight a time frame?
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Re: FFG Netrunner -- Richard Garfield involved?
HuginnGreiling wrote:
garygarison wrote:
I mentioned this is the announcement thread, but Richard Garfield has stated many times that Netrunner really wasn't best suited to the CCG format, that it should have possibly been released as something more approximating a boardgame. If he were involved in this new update, perhaps his informed and idealized vision of NR could come into being. As it stands, without Garfield's involvement, this now seems highly doubtful.

Yes. This is in great part what is driving my disappointment at this new revelation. I'd have liked to have Richard's Netrunner 2.0, as he envisioned.

Perhaps FFG wasn't interested in going that direction. Certainly LCGs seem to be a very profitable model for them.

I can appreciate that fans are concerned about Netrunner losing what made it great (or not gaining what could have made it even greater). But Garfield has clearly never been that interested in reprinting or revising the game. He's talked about it fondly, and he's been friendly to fans. But he has never initiated any public support for a new Netrunner. He's a nice guy, but he has had over a decade to show any real drive to make this project. It's not there.

When FFG came to him, if he was really passionate about helping to update Netrunner, he could have been involved. But he passed. And hey, in fairness, he has had a lot of other projects going on, including his first major board game success in almost twenty years.

If you were planning to hold out for Garfield's Netrunner 2.0 (3.0?), I don't think there is any good reason to think that you'd ever see it. He's just not that into you it.
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