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Subject: combat preview - FFG site rss

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Frank Müller
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I am sure everybody read the new combat preview. Sadly everyone only referred to the new strange LOS rules, but noone cared about the other rules the preview brought to us.

-new dice, power surge rules
-new "death" rules - or knock out rules


I have to admit I dont like the death rules. It seems that no character ever can die but only be unconcious after getting bitten by a dragon (or "knocked out" as they call it). Thats carebear rule is so ridicolous and additonally lacks any narrative.

I hated the lack of perma death in the first edition too. why not allowing death and have the player bring in a fresh character with some extra equipment? (eg with half of the equipment the dead character had?)
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Chris J Davis
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enpeze wrote:
I am sure everybody read the new combat preview. Sadly everyone only referred to the new strange LOS rules, but noone cared about the other rules the preview brought to us.

-new dice, power surge rules
-new "death" rules - or knock out rules


I have to admit I dont like the death rules. It seems that no character ever can die but only be unconcious after getting bitten by a dragon (or "knocked out" as they call it). Thats carebear rule is so ridicolous and additonally lacks any narrative.

I hated the lack of perma death in the first edition too. why not allowing death and have the player bring in a fresh character with some extra equipment? (eg with half of the equipment the dead character had?)


Because it's way too penalising. If you do that, the heroes would never stand a chance in a campaign setting.
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Allan Clements
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Feel free to do that.

Of course throwing adventurer after adventurer at the overlord doesn't seem any more thematic. I can just picture a pile of corpses blocking the way
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Frank Müller
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bleached_lizard wrote:
enpeze wrote:
I am sure everybody read the new combat preview. Sadly everyone only referred to the new strange LOS rules, but noone cared about the other rules the preview brought to us.

-new dice, power surge rules
-new "death" rules - or knock out rules


I have to admit I dont like the death rules. It seems that no character ever can die but only be unconcious after getting bitten by a dragon (or "knocked out" as they call it). Thats carebear rule is so ridicolous and additonally lacks any narrative.

I hated the lack of perma death in the first edition too. why not allowing death and have the player bring in a fresh character with some extra equipment? (eg with half of the equipment the dead character had?)


Because it's way too penalising. If you do that, the heroes would never stand a chance in a campaign setting.


I dont think so. Perma death could easily be implemented if other rules get a corresponding (minor) adjustment. Then it would not ruin any campaign, but instead enrich it.

The real reason why it is not done in descent is not to shock the players too much by killing off their adventurers. (a typically carebear attitude)
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Frank Müller
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Kamakaze wrote:
Feel free to do that.

Of course throwing adventurer after adventurer at the overlord doesn't seem any more thematic.


Absolute everything is more thematic than never beeing able to die but only falling down and beeing "unconcious" after a hit by a dragon bite.
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Chris J Davis
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enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
enpeze wrote:
I am sure everybody read the new combat preview. Sadly everyone only referred to the new strange LOS rules, but noone cared about the other rules the preview brought to us.

-new dice, power surge rules
-new "death" rules - or knock out rules


I have to admit I dont like the death rules. It seems that no character ever can die but only be unconcious after getting bitten by a dragon (or "knocked out" as they call it). Thats carebear rule is so ridicolous and additonally lacks any narrative.

I hated the lack of perma death in the first edition too. why not allowing death and have the player bring in a fresh character with some extra equipment? (eg with half of the equipment the dead character had?)


Because it's way too penalising. If you do that, the heroes would never stand a chance in a campaign setting.


I dont think so. Perma death could easily be implemented if other rules get a corresponding (minor) adjustment. Then it would not ruin any campaign, but instead enrich it.

The real reason why it is not done in descent is not to shock the players too much by killing off their adventurers. (a typically carebear attitude)


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?

Though I also agree that there is some element of allowing a player to grow an attachment to their character, but I don't think that's a bad thing. If you played a whole campaign and controlled seven heroes over the course of it, then death again becomes meaningless and you care neither about dying nor your hero.
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Frank Müller
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bleached_lizard wrote:


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?


I am not the game designer of descent but pay me adquate sum of money and I will develope them.
 
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John Ibarzabal

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Lets be frank, Descent was never realistic (as far as fantasy worlds allow), so altough, it is a fair complaint regarding the knock down system, I am still not sure I dislike it.

It works very well with Gears of War (which Descent 2nd seems to take a few things from)

It almost feels like the "system" has been molded. First FFG released Doom, the system evolved to Descent, then some aspects of it I could find in Gears of War, and now Descent 2nd.

Not saying they are all the same, but it does leave a feel of being related to.

I bet that the knock down system is the same as in GoW: you can revive a friend, but first, you need to find time to do it! Plus, if the whole group is down, game over for the players.

I will wait until the full rules are revealed, until I decide whether the changes are for the better... or worse.

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Chris J Davis
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enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?


I am not the game designer of descent but pay me adquate sum of money and I will develope them.


Ha! All mouth, no trousers.
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Mariano Rico
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Mestre dos Magos wrote:

I bet that the knock down system is the same as in GoW: you can revive a friend, but first, you need to find time to do it! Plus, if the whole group is down, game over for the players.


Not quite, since there is an action to stand up which can be performed by knocked out heroes by themselves, although at the cost of doing nothing else in the turn.

Considering a standing up hero does so at minimum health and stamina, this is going to take us to some "monster camping" strategies by the OL which I am still struggling about in my mind. Will have to wait to see how those work.

A whole knocked out party seems possible but unlikely. I would like that to be a winning condition for the OL though. Seems hard enough to achieve in the same OL turn.
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Frank Müller
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bleached_lizard wrote:
enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?


I am not the game designer of descent but pay me adquate sum of money and I will develope them.


Ha! All mouth, no trousers.


See, its not my job to correct the work a good designer should do from the beginning on. If you think it is, then you have to pay me.
 
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Mariano Rico
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enpeze wrote:

I dont think so. Perma death could easily be implemented if other rules get a corresponding (minor) adjustment. Then it would not ruin any campaign, but instead enrich it.


Easy enough for anyone to include it as a house rule if it works for you. Since there will be rules to play scenarios with more experience characters from the beginning, you might even see your wishes come true easier than you think.

Who knows, some scenarios might include a rule about knocked out heroes being permanently eliminated after some event happens in the scenario (like it does happen in MoM after objectives are revealed)
 
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Andy Mills
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enpeze wrote:

The real reason why it is not done in descent is not to shock the players too much by killing off their adventurers. (a typically carebear attitude)


Sure it is. It's to protect the players' sensibilities. So they don't come down with the vapors or something.
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Nite Wolf
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enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?


I am not the game designer of descent but pay me adquate sum of money and I will develope them.


Ha! All mouth, no trousers.


See, its not my job to correct the work a good designer should do from the beginning on. If you think it is, then you have to pay me.


It's not your job to try and convince everyone that perma-death is the only way to go either, yet you still do it for free .
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Acererak wrote:
enpeze wrote:

I dont think so. Perma death could easily be implemented if other rules get a corresponding (minor) adjustment. Then it would not ruin any campaign, but instead enrich it.


Easy enough for anyone to include it as a house rule if it works for you. Since there will be rules to play scenarios with more experience characters from the beginning, you might even see your wishes come true easier than you think.

Who knows, some scenarios might include a rule about knocked out heroes being permanently eliminated after some event happens in the scenario (like it does happen in MoM after objectives are revealed)


I know I can houserule every rule I dont like, but it would be better if such a rule is a official core rule or official optional.

Again I dont want to correct rules which I feel should be natural and obligatory to a good game. (at least if it is not made after a video game like Gear of Wars in which case I have no problem with roly-poly characters because it belongs to the genre)

I think house ruling is only an emergency method and there is a point where it is better not to buy/play a game than house rule too many essential parts of it.
 
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Chris J Davis
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enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
enpeze wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


Go on, then - tell us. How could the rules be changed to accommodate this?


I am not the game designer of descent but pay me adquate sum of money and I will develope them.


Ha! All mouth, no trousers.


See, its not my job to correct the work a good designer should do from the beginning on. If you think it is, then you have to pay me.


So basically, you're coming in here saying "this is shit - I could have done much better!" and then have absolutely nothing to back your argument up with. And then when confronted about it your get-out clause is just to say that you don't do any thinking unless paid for it.

Right.

I'd recommend that next time you either have at least some kind of vague outline on how you could improve on someone else's ideas before bashing them or else just keep your mouth shut.
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Mariano Rico
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enpeze wrote:
Acererak wrote:
enpeze wrote:

I dont think so. Perma death could easily be implemented if other rules get a corresponding (minor) adjustment. Then it would not ruin any campaign, but instead enrich it.


Easy enough for anyone to include it as a house rule if it works for you. Since there will be rules to play scenarios with more experience characters from the beginning, you might even see your wishes come true easier than you think.

Who knows, some scenarios might include a rule about knocked out heroes being permanently eliminated after some event happens in the scenario (like it does happen in MoM after objectives are revealed)


I know I can houserule every rule I dont like, but it would be better if such a rule is a official core rule or official optional.

Again I dont want to correct rules which I feel should be natural and obligatory to a good game. (at least if it is not made after a video game like Gear of Wars in which case I have no problem with roly-poly characters because it belongs to the genre)

I think house ruling is only an emergency method and there is a point where it is better not to buy/play a game than house rule too many essential parts of it.


I don´t like house ruling either and most of the time I try not to, since I tend to believe that game designing is like clock working. If you tweak this lever just a bit you might be ruining three or four cogs you are not aware of.

That said, after several experiences with FFG games I love and hate at the same time almost in the same amount, I have learnt to live with a bit of house ruling and a ton of FAQ sheets by my side right from the start. You better get ready for it with 2Ed, mate.
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Frank Müller
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Acererak wrote:
[q="enpeze"]

[q="Acererak"]
I don´t like house ruling either and most of the time I try not to, since I tend to believe that game designing is like clock working. If you tweak this lever just a bit you might be ruining three or four cogs you are not aware of.


Of course. I have the same opinion. Thats the reason why I think that there have to be made several adjustments especially in campaign gaming, to enable perma death without ruining balance. Its not just one single rule which says that a hero can die now, but several smaller rule changes and of course its not impossible to change the system to allow it.

I think FFG had the chance with 2nd edition to correct the nonsensical 1st edition death rule where you come back from town after dying (wtf!), but they didnt change it, which is quite disappointing to me.

Acererak wrote:

That said, after several experiences with FFG games I love and hate at the same time almost in the same amount, I have learnt to live with a bit of house ruling and a ton of FAQ sheets by my side right from the start. You better get ready for it with 2Ed, mate.


Yeah there are alot of better game companies out there than FFG, but they undenieable are able to impress alot of people with well produced gaming materials and myriards of shiny plastic minis.

I am an old school gamer from the days of Avalon Hill and West Games wargaming and while the game material of those old games have been bad from todays standards they knew how to write complex rules in an exact and correct way, unlike companies like FFG whose rulebooks are sometimes not more than a mess, printed on glossy full color paper.

 
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Sébastien Volle
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As the resident Overlord in my group, I'm a bit concerned about the knock out rule as well. Sending heroes back to the village by killing them with death is about the only satisfaction the OL gets in the game. And now we can only, like make them go on all four? The KO rule works fine in Gears of War because there is no real antagonist. I'm afraid in Descent it will feel... veeeery underwhelming.

However, I realize the new scenarii have objectives for each side and that the role of the OL is no longer to merely kill the heroes, so maybe it won't be a problem at all, who knows.
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bleached_lizard wrote:

So basically, you're coming in here saying "this is shit - I could have done much better!" and then have absolutely nothing to back your argument up with. And then when confronted about it your get-out clause is just to say that you don't do any thinking unless paid for it.

Right.

I'd recommend that next time you either have at least some kind of vague outline on how you could improve on someone else's ideas before bashing them or else just keep your mouth shut.


Definitely quoting that - far too easy to criticize without arguing properly.
And i don't like the new "hero death" too, but a lot of rules about 2nd edition haven't been revealed yet: for example we don't know about winning conditions etc

Apart from that, i suppose the word Realistic can't really apply to Descent

lawrence
 
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enpeze wrote:
See, its not my job to correct the work a good designer should do from the beginning on. If you think it is, then you have to pay me.

bleached_lizard wrote:
I'd recommend that next time you either have at least some kind of vague outline on how you could improve on someone else's ideas before bashing them or else just keep your mouth shut.



Looks at number of complete conversation of games Chris has done.
Looks at number of complete conversation of games Frank has done.

Puts money on Chris making the changes if he thinks this game is unbalanced/doesn't like them.
AND
Puts money on Frank using them.
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Chris J Davis
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Matchstickman wrote:
enpeze wrote:
See, its not my job to correct the work a good designer should do from the beginning on. If you think it is, then you have to pay me.

bleached_lizard wrote:
I'd recommend that next time you either have at least some kind of vague outline on how you could improve on someone else's ideas before bashing them or else just keep your mouth shut.



Looks at number of complete conversation of games Chris has done.
Looks at number of complete conversation of games Frank has done.

Puts money on Chris making the changes if he thinks this game is unbalanced/doesn't like them.
AND
Puts money on Frank using them.


And note: I don't get paid a penny for doing it.
 
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Chris J Davis
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


So basically, you're coming in here saying "this is shit - I could have done much better!" and then have absolutely nothing to back your argument up with. And then when confronted about it your get-out clause is just to say that you don't do any thinking unless paid for it.

Right.

I'd recommend that next time you either have at least some kind of vague outline on how you could improve on someone else's ideas before bashing them or else just keep your mouth shut.


That was not said at all and you are putting words in the original OPs post that don't exist.

-1 for lack of civility.


Fair enough - I accept the -1 civility penalty. But the sentiment was basically correct.

Don't say "this could be done differently/better... but I don't know how" (or even worse "but you have to pay me before I'll tell you how"). You need to be able to argue your point, otherwise you just come across sounding stupid.
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Kostas K.
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enpeze wrote:
It seems that no character ever can die but only be unconcious after getting bitten by a dragon (or "knocked out" as they call it). Thats carebear rule is so ridicolous and additonally lacks any narrative.


First of all, congrats, OP, for creating a thread that achieved its purpose.

Just two comments on your point of view:
1)Judging from your avatar, I would consider you to be a person that appreciates care-bear rules.
2)Lacks narrative? If there is one staple in all forms of narrative it's the hero that falls down, appearing to be dead, and then, against all odds, gets back up alive and well.
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Andy Mills
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There are a few words that basically cause someone to lose an argument the instant they use them, in my opinion.

One is "carebear".
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