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Subject: Unofficial Minisets rss

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I've tried to organize the suggestions in the "Seafarers?" thread into multiple minisets, following a couple of guidelines:

- The base game uses 2 "cheap" cards (roads and knights), which can be taken from other players when depleted. These cheap cards cost 2 or 3 resources.
- The base game uses almost 4 settlement/city cards per player (4 times the number of players minus 1). It uses 1 "Market Day" event per player, and "Robbery" for the remaining cities.
- The base game uses just over 2 city expansion cards per player (2 times the number of players plus 1). It uses 1 "Church" and 1 "Castle" per 2 players, rounded up for the card protecting the scarcer knights, and down for the card protecting the more available roads.

For the mini-expansions it would be nice to add about half of that. So 1 "cheap" card (like roads and knights) per miniset, as well as 1 city expansion per player.

Since there is no need to swarm the game with settlement/city cards, let's just add 1 settlement/city card per player to match the 1 additional city expansion per player. By giving the cities of each miniset their own event, the number of cities with the custom events matches the number of cities with the "Market Day" event nicely.

The resources in the base game contain about half more wool, grain and ore as lumber and brick. However, since 1 settlement, 1 city and 1 city expansion combined also cost quite a bit more wool, grain and ore, the resource costs of the cheap cards should require each resource equally, just like roads and knights do.

Some cards are based around suggestions made by fergardi2.



I'm interested in making a set of images for these minisets and upload them, but for that I need scans of some of the original cards to work with (my set is in Dutch). If someone is willing to make good quality scans (high DPI, not angled!) of the following cards, I could make an image set out of it.

- Settlement (Since the minisets have additional settlements.)
- City (Since the minisets have additional cities. Preferably the Robbery event, as it has less text.)
- Town Hall City Expansion (Since one of the minisets also has a 4 VP city expansion. Preferably the Church or Castle, as they have less text.)
- Another City Expansion (Since the minisets also have 3 VP city expansions. Preferably the Church or Castle, as they have less text.)
- City Expansion rear (Since the minisets have additional city expansions.)
- Knight A side and B side (I prefer the Knight over the Road, since the Knight has less text. With both sides combined, I'd be able to make a "blank" card.)
- Cost overview card both sides (To list the costs of ships, spies, garrisons, traders and soldiers.)
- Optionally the Destiny card (To add ships, spies, garrisons, traders and soldiers onto it.)

- Among the above cards, preferably at least one card intended for 2 players, 1 for 3 players and 1 for 4 players. The Knight preferably for 2 players.



There are two ways to include the minisets. The first method is to simply add all the cards to the base set. This raises the required number of victory points by 3 per miniset added (13 VP required with 1 miniset, 16 VP required with 2 minisets, etc...).

Alternatively, you could keep the required number of victory points low by limiting the number of available settlement/city cards. Shuffle all settlement/city cards. Then, without looking at the city events, keep a number of cards depending on the number of players, and return the rest to the box.

2 players: Keep 7 settlement/city cards.
3 players: Keep 11 settlement/city cards.
4 players: Keep 15 settlement/city cards.
5 players: Keep 19 settlement/city cards.
6 players: Keep 23 settlement/city cards.

When adding only 1 miniset in this way, the required number of victory points stays at 10. When adding 2 or 3 minisets, the required number of victory points becomes 11. When adding 4 or 5 minisets, the required number of victory points becomes 12.

Tip: If you play with 5 players, you might want to consider using a 2nd university instead of a 3rd merchant guild. If you play with 6 players, you might want to consider using a 2nd university and a 2nd library instead of a 3rd and a 4th merchant guild.



For comparison: The base set.

5/7/9/11/13 roads (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 lumber, 1 brick. When depleted, these can be taken from other players.
[A side] Trade one resource card with the market, the draw stack, or an opponent.
[B side] 1 VP.

2/4/5/7/8 knights (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 wool, 1 grain, 1 ore. When depleted, these can be taken from other players.
[A side] You may draw 1 more resource card at the end of your turn.
[B side] 1 VP.

3/7/11/15/19 "Robbery" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. Players with more than 7 resource cards must discard down to 7 resource cards. (Estimated text)

2/3/4/5/6 "Market Day" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. Discard all cards in the market. Draw 5 new resource cards from the draw stack and place them open in the market. (Estimated text)

1/2/2/3/3 "Church" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you only have 1 knight, it may not be taken away from you.

1/1/2/2/3 "Castle" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you have 3 or fewer roads, a road may not be taken away from you.

0/1/2/3/4 "Merchant Guild" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. Choose a player with a number of victory points equal to or more than yours. Take a resource card from his hand without looking (1x per turn). (Estimated text)

1/1/1/1/1 "Library" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. When trading with an opponent, you may look at his cards and choose the card he trades with you (1x per turn).

1/1/1/1/1 "University" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. When building, you may replace 1 of the required resource cards with a different type of resource card (1x per turn).

1/1/1/1/1 "Town Hall" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 4 VP. If you build the town hall, you must pay an additional 2 ore.



The miniset I posted originally: Seafarers. This set focuses on ships and exploration.

4/6/7/9/10 ships (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 lumber, 1 wool. When depleted, these can be taken from other players (like roads and knights).
[A side] During your trade phase, look at the top 2 cards of the draw stack. Place each card back on the draw stack or on the discard pile (1x per turn per ship).
[B side] 1 VP.
(If the draw stack contains less than 2 resource cards, shuffle the discard pile and place those cards under the remaining resource cards on the draw stack, before looking at the top 2 cards.
You may return both resource cards to the top of the draw stack, return one and discard the other, or discard both. If you return both resource cards to the top of the draw stack, you may decide the order in which the cards are returned.
If you have 3 ships, you may do this twice, but you can still only look at the top 2 cards at a time. However, you can look at the top 2 cards, then trade by discarding a card and drawing the top card, and then look at the top 2 cards again.)

2/3/4/5/6 "Calm Sea" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. Clockwise, starting with yourself, each player places the top card from the draw stack in the market, and then takes a card from the market in hand.
(Wait until the previous player took a card from the market in hand, before drawing your card. Each player should have 6 cards to choose from. You may choose which card from the market in hand.)

1/1/2/2/3 "Lighthouse" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you only have 1 ship, it may not be taken away from you.

0/1/1/2/2 "Harbor" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. You may flip over the destiny card (1x per turn). When building, you may replace required resource cards with two identical resource cards of a different type.
(You may replace any number of resource cards for any number of buildings, as long as you pay two identical resource cards for each replaced resource card.)

1/1/1/1/1 "Colossus" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. Worth 1 additional VP while you have more roads and ships combined than each other player.



The second miniset: Diplomats. This set focuses on spies and interaction.

3/4/6/7/9 spies (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 wool, 1 ore. When depleted, these can be taken from other players (like roads and knights).
[A side] When trading with or stealing from an opponent, that player must reveal 2 of his resource cards.
[B side] 1 VP.
(You may take either one of the revealed cards, or draw one of the remaining cards at random.
If you have 3 spies, the opponent must reveal 4 of his resource cards. If a player needs to reveal more cards than he has on hand, he must reveal all his resource cards.
If you trade with or steal from the same opponent multiple times, he is allowed to show the same or different cards every time you trade or steal a card.)

2/3/4/5/6 "Civil War" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. The player that built this city counts the number of resource cards in his hand. Each player, him included, must discard that amount of resource cards.
(Players that have less resource cards in their hand than the player that built the city must discard their entire hand.
If the player that built the city has no more resource cards in his hand, ignore the civil war event.)

1/1/2/2/3 "Thieves Guild" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you only have 1 spy, it may not be taken away from you.

0/1/1/1/1 "Embassy" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. When an opponent builds a city expansion other than town hall or assembly hall, randomly decide which city expansion he builds.
(When you build a city expansion, pick one as normal.
Shuffle all city expansions, except town hall, assembly hall and any city expansions that are identical to the city expansions that he already has, then let him draw a city expansion at random.)

1/1/1/1/1 "Academy" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. Worth 1 additional VP while you have more knights and spies combined than each other player.

When playing with 5 or 6 players, include a 2nd library. If you already included a 2nd library, include a 2nd university instead. If you already included a 2nd library and a 2nd university, include a 3rd merchant guild instead.



The third miniset: Merchants. This set focuses on traders and resources.

3/5/6/8/9 traders (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 brick, 1 grain. When depleted, these can be taken from other players (like roads and knights).
[A side] When trading with an opponent, call a resource. If this resource is shown on the card you take, show the card to everyone and do not return a resource card.
[B side] 1 VP.
(You must call the resource before drawing the card. If you use the library, spies, or a similar effect, you must call the resource before you get to see the opponent's resource cards.
This counts as a trade, even if you don't need to return a resource. If you have no roads, you cannot use the A side of your traders.
If you have 3 traders, you may call 2 resources. If the card matches either resource, you get to show it without giving a resource card back for it.)

2/3/4/5/6 "Tournament" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. The player with the most knights, traders and spies combined may steal 1 resource card from each other player.
(When players are tied for the most knights, traders and spies combined, ignore the tournament event.)

1/2/2/3/3 "Vault" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you only have 1 trader, it may not be taken away from you.

1/1/1/1/2 "Bazaar" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. When trading with the draw stack, you may draw 2 resource cards, then discard 2 resource cards (1x per turn).
(This also applies when you trade with the draw stack, because you have no roads.
You may discard one or both of the cards you have just drawn.)

0/0/1/1/1 "Assembly Hall" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 4 VP. If you build the assembly hall, you must pay an additional 2 grain.

1/1/1/1/1 "Counting House" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. Worth 1 additional VP while you have more traders and garrisons combined than each other player.
(Do not include the counting house unless you also include the Builders miniset.)



The fourth miniset: Builders. This set focuses on garrisons and protection.

2/3/5/6/8 garrisons (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 lumber, 1 brick. When depleted, these can be taken from other players (like roads and knights).
[A side] At the end of your turn, after drawing cards, place up to 2 resource cards from your hand face down in front of you. Draw these at the start of your next turn.
[B side] 1 VP.
(Do this after you have drawn new cards. You may decide not to place any cards down in front of you.
These resource cards are not considered to be in your hand. They cannot be seen or taken by other players, and they do not count towards the limit of 7 cards in case of the Robbery event.
If you lose one or more garrisons before the start of your next turn, you may still return all cards to your hand.
If you have 3 garrisons, you can place up to 4 resource cards from your hand face down in front of you.)

2/3/4/5/6 "Productive Year" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. Each player draws 1 resource card from the draw stack for each of his roads, garrisons and ships with the B side facing up.

1/2/2/3/3 "Great Wall" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. If you only have 1 garrison, it may not be taken away from you.

1/1/1/1/2 "Building Crane" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. You may trade and build in any order. You may build more than one card of the same type during a single turn.
(For example, if you have two roads, trade once, and then build a building crane and a third road, you may then trade a second time, as stated on your third road. After that, you may build another road or city expansion or a completely different card.
This does allow you to use ships during the turn that you build them, as your trade phase and build phase now overlap.)

0/0/1/1/1 "Fortress" city expansion (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. When an opponent builds a card, and would take that card from you, you may discard 2 resource cards to have him take it from the next available player.
(You cannot use the fortress if you are the only player from which the card can be taken.)
When someone builds multiple cards, and would take multiple cards from you, you may use the fortress multiple times, but you need to pay 2 resource cards each time you activate it.)



The final miniset: Barbarians. This set focus on soldiers and destruction.

Cards in the Barbarians miniset have strength points in addition to or instead of victory points. The player with the most strength points receives 2 bonus victory points. If players are tied for the most strength points, each player tied for the most strength points receives 1 bonus victory point.

The soldier card and the barbarians event refer to minor properties. Minor properties include all cards that can be built and taken from another player when the stack is depleted (roads, knights, soldiers, ships, spies, traders and garrisons, but not settlements, cities, city expansions or resource cards).

When you need to discard a minor property, return it to the appropriate stack. If the stack was depleted, start a new stack. Players draw cards from this stack when appropriate, even if the stack was depleted earlier. Players should have each type of card in an ABABA order, regardless of which card was discarded.

Cards that prevent players from taking a minor property from you (church, castle, lighthouse, thieves guild, vault, great wall and fortress), do not prevent you from discarding the minor property.

4/6/8/10/12 soldiers (2/3/4/5/6 players).
- 1 grain, 1 ore. When depleted, these can be taken from other players (like roads and knights).
[A side] 2 strength points.
[B side] 1 strength point. An opponent of your choice with less strength points than you must discard a minor property of his choice (1x per turn per soldier with the B side facing up).

2/3/4/5/6 "Barbarians" settlements/cities (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[Settlement side] 1 VP. When you build this settlement, you may flip over the destiny card.
[City side] 2 VP. The player with the least amount of strength points (or all tied players) must discard a minor property of his choice.
(If the player (or all tied players) has no minor property, or has a barracks, ignore the barbarians event. The event does not affect the next lowest player.)

1/1/2/2/2 "Barracks" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. 1 strength point knight and garrison you have. You do not lose cards to the barbarians, civil war and tournament events.
(If you are the player building the city that triggers the civil war event, the other players must still discard a number of resource cards equal to the number of resource cards in your hand.
If you have the most traders and spies combined during the tournament event, you still get to steal a resource card from each other player.
You still lose resource cards to the robbery event if you hold more than 7 resource cards.)

1/1/1/2/2 "Watch Tower" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. 1 strength point per road and spy you have with the B side facing up. You may discard 2 resource cards instead of discarding a minor property.

0/1/1/1/2 "Shipyard" city expansions (2/3/4/5/6 players).
[City expansion side] 3 VP. 1 strength point per ship and trader you have with the A side facing up. Draw 1 resource card from the draw stack each time you discard a minor property.
(Do not draw a resource card when someone takes a minor property from you.
Do not draw a resource card when you use the watch tower instead of discarding a minor property.)
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Kolja Geldmacher
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When you go for the actual card designs, would you consider using nandeck or cardmaker? It would make translation so much easier afterwards
FH
 
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Travis Morton
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^^^Agreed. Formating needs to be cleaned, and bold the card names for easier reading.

You have put in work, it shows. However it feels unpolished or lighter than it need be. In Magic the Gathering's early days, this is what happened. It was formulated and acceptable, but hard to love.

Once you add the Strength mechanic, it feels like you are obsoleting the previous design. While good for an ever expanding game (sort of) it is bad for a closed game like this or Rivals where you never know when/if the next expansion is coming.

You have a great number of ideas and ways to add change, but the feel half-hearted. Some can be annoying in less player games like 2-3 as being able to manipulate trades/draw and th elike can lead to lockout or blowout moments that does not lend itself to (healthy) longevity/survivability of the game.

There may need to be rules for classifications of units or agreement to unit additions. Maybe even 'assassin' (Archers from Rivals) class cards to balance the game. That does also lead a rock-paper-scissor ideology to become more like a Star of David design:

|.......1
|....../..\
|.2--------3
|....\/....\/
|..../\..../\
|.4--------5
|......\../
|.......6

(Forgive the crudeness)

4 Beats 1
1 Beats 5
5 Beats 4

2 Beats 3
3 Beats 6
6 Beats 2

And there is dead space between triangle 1 and 2

And if you don't have that completed... and you have an open triangle.. that gets ugly, as then people wait for balance, and as WizKids Games has sown, that may not come.

I think things like your Colossus should have something added on like (you may not control more than 3 City/Expansions, and it cannot be built if you already control more than 3 City/Settlement)

Balance is hard, I like the ideas. But looking to Rivals I see some things that irked me.

If you played Rivals, each expansion/them had a certain topic it pushed. Awesome; focused; simple.

However, when you go Duel of the Princes, and you have to each pick an expansion, then agree or randomize a 3rd, sometimes there are dis-synergies. The Era of Turmoil (heroes) was mostly about handicapping the opponent. Great concept, but tough sell. Era of Progress, and to an extend Merchant Princes, say lowered player interaction. And then the Era of Barbarians had a constant attack from an NPC as it were.

I am sure not everyone loved every card or theme, but it was focused. Your expansions are formulated, but don't 'feel' like they interact more than parts of a clock do. I desire an eco-system approach personally.

I do appreciate your innovsation, and this was meant to be constructive not critical.

EDIT:

Direct Solutions:

Pillager
Opponents Draw 1 less card to a minimum of 2 each turn

*Anti-Knight that will not kill the game, just neutralize and end up in a wierd game of cat and mouse


City
Anarchy: All Players Discard all but 1 Knight

* it will allow the Church like effects to stay active, and yet, free up the board for a breather

City Expansion - Occupied Castle
All Players either Discard down to 4 Resource Cards or Discard 2 Knights

*Harsh, but it lets the knight problem either give up resources they have been coveting, or give up the means by which they got them. Likely they will all take the discard cards

 
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Will
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This all sounds nice and make me wanna keep the game. Have these been designed already for print ?
 
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