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I thought I understood Headstrong until I looked at the official FAQ.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Gal...

"Q: Under what conditions does Lee Adama have to use his
'Headstrong' ability?
A: Whenever he is forced to discard cards. This includes
discarding down to 10 cards at the end of a player’s turn, and
when required to do so by a Crisis Card. It does not include
when he discards a card to move between ships.
"

Presumably, the bolded portion also applies if Apollo chooses to land his viper.

I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.

Fantasy Flight does not explain the rationale for their ruling, but seemingly they're saying that if Apollo voluntarily chooses a course of action that will lead to him discarding a card, he gets to choose instead of discarding randomly.

Okay, so what happens if it's Apollo's turn and he draws, for instance, Fulfiller of Prophecy? That allows the current player to choose between a YG6 or the current player discards a skill card. Assuming Apollo takes the second choice, does he discard randomly or non-randomly? If he's choosing by virtue of being President/Admiral/CAG, same result? What if he chooses the skill check, but Helo "persuades" him otherwise? Thank you in advance.

 
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downfall wrote:
I thought I understood Headstrong until I looked at the official FAQ.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Gal...

"Q: Under what conditions does Lee Adama have to use his
'Headstrong' ability?
A: Whenever he is forced to discard cards. This includes
discarding down to 10 cards at the end of a player’s turn, and
when required to do so by a Crisis Card. It does not include
when he discards a card to move between ships.
"

Presumably, the bolded portion also applies if Apollo chooses to land his viper.

Yes, because that is the same as moving between ships (the viper and Galactica).

Quote:
I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.

Fantasy Flight does not explain the rationale for their ruling, but seemingly they're saying that if Apollo voluntarily chooses a course of action that will lead to him discarding a card, he gets to choose instead of discarding randomly.

Okay, so what happens if it's Apollo's turn and he draws, for instance, Fulfiller of Prophecy? That allows the current player to choose between a YG6 or the current player discards a skill card. Assuming Apollo takes the second choice, does he discard randomly or non-randomly? If he's choosing by virtue of being President/Admiral/CAG, same result? What if he chooses the skill check, but Helo "persuades" him otherwise? Thank you in advance.


As the FAQ states, a discard from a crisis card triggers his ability. So this is a forced decision even if he could have taken the "or" option to avoid it.
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downfall wrote:
I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.


You're not forced to land a Viper or move to another ship, so the penalty doesn't apply.
 
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With Fulfiller of Prophecy, Apollo would have the choice of two Crisis resolutions, but when he chooses one, he does not have a choice on discarding a card.

It is a fine line and I do understand your confusion on it. I believe the only time Apollo does not discard randomly is when he discards a card to move between ships.
 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
As the FAQ states, a discard from a crisis card triggers his ability. So this is a forced decision even if he could have taken the "or" option to avoid it.


I want that result to be right, because I think it's better for balance and Apollo is already good enough. I don't yet share your confidence.

The FAQ says that "when required to do so by a Crisis Card." If he chose the option that causes him to discard cards, was he "required" to do so or did he choose to do so?

Your interpretation seems to be that "when required to do so by a Crisis Card" is read as "when a crisis card causes him to discard."

But the way they specifically said "required" gives me some pause. A competing interpretation is that if he had an option that would have allowed him to not discard cards, then he was not "required" to do so. Instead, he chose a course of action that would result in him discarding a card/cards-- just like when he hops ships. I also find "forced decision" to be a bit of an oxymoron.
 
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EitherOrlok wrote:
downfall wrote:
I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.


You're not forced to land a Viper or move to another ship, so the penalty doesn't apply.


Right-- but you're also not "forced" to choose the option that makes you lose cards. Setting aside the complicating factor of Helo for the moment, "I choose to discard a card so the fleet avoids this skill check" seems to be the same level of voluntary as "I discard this card because I really want to land in the armory and shoot some centurions." What's the difference?
 
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Ripshawd wrote:
With Fulfiller of Prophecy, Apollo would have the choice of two Crisis resolutions, but when he chooses one, he does not have a choice on discarding a card.

It is a fine line and I do understand your confusion on it. I believe the only time Apollo does not discard randomly is when he discards a card to move between ships.


Absent some clarification, I think I'll rule it the way you suggest. That's not because I think there's a clear right answer, it's just that Apollo is good enough and I want to head off any rules lawyering about what counts as "voluntary"-- the last thing I need is to be on the opposite team of an Apollo who feels like arguing the point. While this resolution is convenient, I'm not confident it's actually right.
 
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Then don't think of it as voluntary vs involuntary... think of it as "moving ships" vs everything else...

Crisis? Random
Over hand limit? Random
Moving ships? Not random.

Forget the voluntary/involuntary distinction and go with something that's easier to see.
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InfoCynic wrote:
Then don't think of it as voluntary vs involuntary... think of it as "moving ships" vs everything else...

Crisis? Random
Over hand limit? Random
Moving ships? Not random.

Forget the voluntary/involuntary distinction and go with something that's easier to see.


Well, again, I'm happy to do so as a matter of convenience. The difficulty is that it ignores what it says in the FAQ-- that it's triggered "Whenever he is forced to discard cards."

The more I think about it, the more I think that the right answer is that there's things beyond those two exceptions that don't count as "forced." If that's what they meant, why wouldn't they have just said, "His headstrong ability is triggered any time he discards cards, unless he's changing ships or landing his viper." Instead, they created this "forced"/"voluntary" dichotomy but provided us no details on it. If landing and changing ships are the only two things that don't count as "forced," why would they do such a thing?
 
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Because they simply didn't think through the implication of a Crisis card with a choice to discard or not discard, and how that would muddy the issue. It's really as simple as that. Basically, at the point at which the choice has been made, Apollo is now forced to discard the cards. That another choice existed or that Apollo himself may have made that choice is irrelevant. I will concede that it's not clean, but it's just that FFG didn't think it through fully... it's not anything sneaky.
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InfoCynic wrote:
Because they simply didn't think through the implication of a Crisis card with a choice to discard or not discard, and how that would muddy the issue. It's really as simple as that. Basically, at the point at which the choice has been made, Apollo is now forced to discard the cards. That another choice existed or that Apollo himself may have made that choice is irrelevant. I will concede that it's not clean, but it's just that FFG didn't think it through fully... it's not anything sneaky.


Fair enough. When I'm not boardgaming, I'm a lawyer in real life and the canons of construction I usually work with are aggressively unhelpful when dealing with Fantasy Flight. Perhaps I need to compartmentalize better. Absent anybody in this thread providing a workable methodology, I am inclined to just ignore the answer they actually gave and pretend they said that the only exception is landing/changing ships.
 
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downfall wrote:
I am inclined to just ignore the answer they actually gave and pretend they said that the only exception is landing/changing ships.

To be fair, their answer does specifically state that Crisis cards are what trigger this. Crisis cards are just that - a Crisis - so they are going to be played no matter what, regardless of the decision. So in that sense, the card is forced even if the choice of how it is resolved is yours.

Scouring the database of cards now, I see one other "exemption" to this besides moving between ships. "Pegasus' Engine Room" is a location that allows you to discard 2 Skill cards to get a prepare for jump action. Since this is voluntary, it should not be a random discard.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
downfall wrote:
I am inclined to just ignore the answer they actually gave and pretend they said that the only exception is landing/changing ships.

To be fair, their answer does specifically state that Crisis cards are what trigger this. Crisis cards are just that - a Crisis - so they are going to be played no matter what, regardless of the decision. So in that sense, the card is forced even if the choice of how it is resolved is yours.

Scouring the database of cards now, I see one other "exemption" to this besides moving between ships. "Pegasus' Engine Room" is a location that allows you to discard 2 Skill cards to get a prepare for jump action. Since this is voluntary, it should not be a random discard.


I hadn't considered the engine room. And, again, looking at the text of the answer:

"A: Whenever he is forced to discard cards. This includes
discarding down to 10 cards at the end of a player’s turn, and
when required to do so by a Crisis Card. It does not include
when he discards a card to move between ships.""

Three things are made crystal clear by this answer: (1) It's random when he's discarding down to 10 cards to respect the hand limit, (2) It's non-random when he discards to move between ships, and (3) In at least some circumstances, crisis cards force a discard, making it random. The word "includes" suggests that it can in principle be triggered by things other than crisis cards and the hand limit, and the qualification of Apollo being "required" to do so by a crisis card suggests that the limitation does not apply if he discards as a result of a crisis card but was not required to do so-- I read that to possibly mean that it doesn't apply if it's a choice he made voluntarily in lieu of a skill check, but I remain unsure what the intent was.

Amending my answer earlier and pending further responses, I'll probably play it at my game that Apollo is random unless he's (i) landing, (ii) changing ships, or (iii) using the engine room.
 
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downfall wrote:
Amending my answer earlier and pending further responses, I'll probably play it at my game that Apollo is random unless he's (i) landing, (ii) changing ships, or (iii) using the engine room.


Landing is changing ships (changing from a viper to Galactica, Pegasus or C1) so for more simplicity you could whittle it down to just 2 options.
 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
To be fair, their answer does specifically state that Crisis cards are what trigger this. Crisis cards are just that - a Crisis - so they are going to be played no matter what, regardless of the decision. So in that sense, the card is forced even if the choice of how it is resolved is yours.

Scouring the database of cards now, I see one other "exemption" to this besides moving between ships. "Pegasus' Engine Room" is a location that allows you to discard 2 Skill cards to get a prepare for jump action. Since this is voluntary, it should not be a random discard.


The way I look at it is this: if you have to pay the card out in order to get some other human-beneficial effect, it's voluntary. If the discard is the result of an effect, then it's random.
 
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They really should've just simplified things and said anytime he discards skill cards, then he has to do so randomly. It still makes him a good character.

Going purely by the rules, I'd rule that Apollo using ER, he would get to choose which cards to discard.

ColtsFan76 wrote:
downfall wrote:
I thought I understood Headstrong until I looked at the official FAQ.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Gal...

"Q: Under what conditions does Lee Adama have to use his
'Headstrong' ability?
A: Whenever he is forced to discard cards. This includes
discarding down to 10 cards at the end of a player’s turn, and
when required to do so by a Crisis Card. It does not include
when he discards a card to move between ships.
"

Presumably, the bolded portion also applies if Apollo chooses to land his viper.

Yes, because that is the same as moving between ships (the viper and Galactica).

Quote:
I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.

Fantasy Flight does not explain the rationale for their ruling, but seemingly they're saying that if Apollo voluntarily chooses a course of action that will lead to him discarding a card, he gets to choose instead of discarding randomly.

Okay, so what happens if it's Apollo's turn and he draws, for instance, Fulfiller of Prophecy? That allows the current player to choose between a YG6 or the current player discards a skill card. Assuming Apollo takes the second choice, does he discard randomly or non-randomly? If he's choosing by virtue of being President/Admiral/CAG, same result? What if he chooses the skill check, but Helo "persuades" him otherwise? Thank you in advance.


As the FAQ states, a discard from a crisis card triggers his ability. So this is a forced decision even if he could have taken the "or" option to avoid it.
 
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The obvious "bright line" between cost A to do B and consequence A of doing B is whether or not you can still do B if you can't do A. You can choose the discard option on Fulfiller of Prophecy even if you have no cards to discard, so the discard is a consequence, not a cost. You can't activate the Engine Room if you don't have two cards to throw in (four if you're playing as Laura Roslin) so it's a cost. Discarding down to ten cards at turn's end only ever happens when you have cards to discard, so this test doesn't cover it, but it's pretty obvious that it's forced rather than voluntary anyway...

I'm comfortable with ruling that Apollo can choose what to discard as a cost, but discards randomly when it's a consequence.
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rmsgrey wrote:
The obvious "bright line" between cost A to do B and consequence A of doing B is whether or not you can still do B if you can't do A. You can choose the discard option on Fulfiller of Prophecy even if you have no cards to discard, so the discard is a consequence, not a cost. You can't activate the Engine Room if you don't have two cards to throw in (four if you're playing as Laura Roslin) so it's a cost. Discarding down to ten cards at turn's end only ever happens when you have cards to discard, so this test doesn't cover it, but it's pretty obvious that it's forced rather than voluntary anyway...

I'm comfortable with ruling that Apollo can choose what to discard as a cost, but discards randomly when it's a consequence.


I'm not sure I entirely follow this. By this reasoning, wouldn't crisis cards that take the form of "Current player discards x cards and president discards y cards" allow Apollo to discard non-randomly? That option could still be selected even if Apollo had no cards. If that's the case, then I can't think of any crisis cards which would be deemed to be a "consequence", but at least some crisis cards must trigger Apollo's weakness, because the FAQ explicitly contemplates that possibility. If the reasoning leads inevitably to conclusions that contradict the FAQ, then the reasoning must be wrong.
 
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downfall wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
The obvious "bright line" between cost A to do B and consequence A of doing B is whether or not you can still do B if you can't do A. You can choose the discard option on Fulfiller of Prophecy even if you have no cards to discard, so the discard is a consequence, not a cost. You can't activate the Engine Room if you don't have two cards to throw in (four if you're playing as Laura Roslin) so it's a cost. Discarding down to ten cards at turn's end only ever happens when you have cards to discard, so this test doesn't cover it, but it's pretty obvious that it's forced rather than voluntary anyway...

I'm comfortable with ruling that Apollo can choose what to discard as a cost, but discards randomly when it's a consequence.


I'm not sure I entirely follow this. By this reasoning, wouldn't crisis cards that take the form of "Current player discards x cards and president discards y cards" allow Apollo to discard non-randomly? That option could still be selected even if Apollo had no cards. If that's the case, then I can't think of any crisis cards which would be deemed to be a "consequence", but at least some crisis cards must trigger Apollo's weakness, because the FAQ explicitly contemplates that possibility. If the reasoning leads inevitably to conclusions that contradict the FAQ, then the reasoning must be wrong.

I don't agree with that reasoning either. It doesn't seem to jive with the spirit or the letter of the law as you pointed out.
 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
downfall wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
The obvious "bright line" between cost A to do B and consequence A of doing B is whether or not you can still do B if you can't do A. You can choose the discard option on Fulfiller of Prophecy even if you have no cards to discard, so the discard is a consequence, not a cost. You can't activate the Engine Room if you don't have two cards to throw in (four if you're playing as Laura Roslin) so it's a cost. Discarding down to ten cards at turn's end only ever happens when you have cards to discard, so this test doesn't cover it, but it's pretty obvious that it's forced rather than voluntary anyway...

I'm comfortable with ruling that Apollo can choose what to discard as a cost, but discards randomly when it's a consequence.


I'm not sure I entirely follow this. By this reasoning, wouldn't crisis cards that take the form of "Current player discards x cards and president discards y cards" allow Apollo to discard non-randomly? That option could still be selected even if Apollo had no cards. If that's the case, then I can't think of any crisis cards which would be deemed to be a "consequence", but at least some crisis cards must trigger Apollo's weakness, because the FAQ explicitly contemplates that possibility. If the reasoning leads inevitably to conclusions that contradict the FAQ, then the reasoning must be wrong.

I don't agree with that reasoning either. It doesn't seem to jive with the spirit or the letter of the law as you pointed out.


Either I miswrote, or you misread - either way, you appear to have got what I meant entirely reversed. Food Shortage's discard option works whether Apollo has cards to discard or not, so the discard is a consequence, not a cost, so he discards randomly.

The discard is a consequence when the rest of the effect causing you to discard goes ahead anyway even if you have no cards.

Discard is a cost when the rest of the effect only happens if you actually have cards to discard.

There is a third possibility - effects that trigger off cards being discarded (the opportunity to play the Pegasus skill card Treachery, for example) - which look like discard-as-a-cost - so the above descriptions shouldn't be taken as complete, merely as highlighting the contrast between cost and consequence.
 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
downfall wrote:
I thought I understood Headstrong until I looked at the official FAQ.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Gal...

"Q: Under what conditions does Lee Adama have to use his
'Headstrong' ability?
A: Whenever he is forced to discard cards. This includes
discarding down to 10 cards at the end of a player’s turn, and
when required to do so by a Crisis Card. It does not include
when he discards a card to move between ships.
"

Presumably, the bolded portion also applies if Apollo chooses to land his viper.

Yes, because that is the same as moving between ships (the viper and Galactica).

Quote:
I do not understand the distinction that Fantasy Flight is drawing between being "forced" to discard cards and not being forced to do so. Having not read the clarification, I would have assumed that Apollo changes ships, is forced to discard a card to do so, and therefore does so randomly.

Fantasy Flight does not explain the rationale for their ruling, but seemingly they're saying that if Apollo voluntarily chooses a course of action that will lead to him discarding a card, he gets to choose instead of discarding randomly.

Okay, so what happens if it's Apollo's turn and he draws, for instance, Fulfiller of Prophecy? That allows the current player to choose between a YG6 or the current player discards a skill card. Assuming Apollo takes the second choice, does he discard randomly or non-randomly? If he's choosing by virtue of being President/Admiral/CAG, same result? What if he chooses the skill check, but Helo "persuades" him otherwise? Thank you in advance.


As the FAQ states, a discard from a crisis card triggers his ability. So this is a forced decision even if he could have taken the "or" option to avoid it.
What about say engine room? He chooses himself?
 
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aliquis wrote:
What about say engine room? He chooses himself?


I'd say yes, Apollo can choose which cards to discard for the Engine Room.

The question I use to decide is: "Could Apollo still 'discard' here if his hand was empty?" For moving between ships or feeding the Engine Room, the answer is "no", and Apollo gets to choose his discards; for discarding to a Crisis, the answer is "yes" and the discards are random.

The anomaly is discarding due to hand limit, where my question involves Apollo simultaneously having both 11+ cards in hand and 0 cards in hand. Since that's a logical impossibility, the question is meaningless, but Apollo discards randomly then anyway.
 
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There is discussion in some other thread about the difference of cost (card required to perform some action) and consequence (cards discarded because of something), and I think these fit the Apollo weakness as well.

Costs are voluntary and consequences are forced. And it is a consequence to be forced to discard because of having too many cards in hand at end-of-turn.

 
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a1bert wrote:
There is discussion in some other thread about the difference of cost (card required to perform some action) and consequence (cards discarded because of something), and I think these fit the Apollo weakness as well.

Costs are voluntary and consequences are forced. And it is a consequence to be forced to discard because of having too many cards in hand at end-of-turn.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I said half-a-dozen replies before yours in this thread. People didn't seem to get it then, so I thought I'd try a different way of expressing it this time.
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
aliquis wrote:
What about say engine room? He chooses himself?


I'd say yes, Apollo can choose which cards to discard for the Engine Room.

The question I use to decide is: "Could Apollo still 'discard' here if his hand was empty?" For moving between ships or feeding the Engine Room, the answer is "no", and Apollo gets to choose his discards; for discarding to a Crisis, the answer is "yes" and the discards are random.

The anomaly is discarding due to hand limit, where my question involves Apollo simultaneously having both 11+ cards in hand and 0 cards in hand. Since that's a logical impossibility, the question is meaningless, but Apollo discards randomly then anyway.
Well, the ability is called headstrong so I suppose it would make the most sense for skill checks.

But maybe even more so if what he added to the skill check was two cards drawn from his hand at random

So, do he discard cards when he use alert viper pilot?

And also at the start I assume he starts outside in space in his own viper? Not just one of the regular two?
 
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