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Subject: Enemy Placement rss

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Ken Latall
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1- I'm very confused about the VOF/PDF? column when it says "No". "No" only means that the enemy places a VOF/PDF according to his normal priorities, but he will ALWAYS place a VOF/PDF because he always has the triggering unit to fire at. Is this correct?

2- 9.2.4 says, "When placed, enemy units will always target the unit that triggered their placement." But this isn't true if the VOF/PDF column is "No", correct?

3- Later, in 9.2.4 it says, "If the placement location drawn does not legally allow the enemy unit to target the triggering US unit, redraw for a different placement." But this doesn't matter is the VOF/PDF column is "No" and due to priorities, the enemy targets a different unit than the triggering unit.

4- Aside from placing packages with a +, you NEVER place a new enemy on a card that always has an enemy. And you don't place a new enemy along another enemy's existing PDF, correct?

Thanks for the help. I've had tons of questions and I'm getting through them, finally able to see the end of the tunnel, but still a ways to go.

Have a great day!
Ken
 
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Peter Kossits
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1,2 - From what I've seen thus far, whenever VOF is "No", it's always to simulate enemies that have been taken by surprise (they're often also exposed). Obey all of the normal rules regarding enemy placement, just don't place a VOF marker. You get a possible free shot at them and at the end of the current Combat phase, you do place the VOF for them so they will start shooting next turn (if they still can).

4 - Correct. But the "+" only comes up when two units are being placed at the same time. If there is already a unit there, you wouldn't place either of the the "+" units on that spot.

"You can NEVER place an enemy package on a card that already contains enemy units"

I'm a little surprised by this part of 9.2 actually. A paralyzed unit which retreated would prevent a new unit from coming on board at that spot?
 
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Ken Latall
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This email is from benhull, the designer:

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Hull (benhull) [mailto:reply+1e45fgytl@boardgamegeek.com]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:35 PM
To: kenlatall@att.net
Subject: [BGG] First Set of Answers

Subject: [BGG] First Set of Answers
From: benhull
----------------------------------------------
Here is the first run at some answers and clarifications:

Quote:

• 6.0 Says, “Any unengaged enemy units will open fire on your friendly units as soon as your units become spotted in range of enemy Basic VOF.” This isn’t totally true. When first placing an enemy that doesn’t place VOF/PDF, even though you’re within range and LOS, the enemy doesn’t fire during combat. At the end of combat you resolve any Mine VOF that was triggered earlier in the turn. Finally, VOF/PDF Markers are update. This is when the enemy, that didn’t fire originally because he didn’t place any VOF/PDF, gets to finally place his VOF/PDF markers.


I believe there is a misunderstanding here. When first placing an enemy units, most cases the unit is placed with VOF/PDF to the unit that had the PC Marker, in cases where the unit is not so designated, 6.0 applies, the enemy will open fire immediately on placement according to the target priorities. VOF/PDF markers are updated dynamically as the situation changes on the map.
 
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Mark L
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klatall wrote:
This email is from benhull, the designer:

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Hull (benhull) [mailto:reply+1e45fgytl@boardgamegeek.com]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:35 PM
To: kenlatall@att.net
Subject: [BGG] First Set of Answers

Subject: [BGG] First Set of Answers
From: benhull
----------------------------------------------

...

I believe there is a misunderstanding here. When first placing an enemy units, most cases the unit is placed with VOF/PDF to the unit that had the PC Marker, in cases where the unit is not so designated, 6.0 applies, the enemy will open fire immediately on placement according to the target priorities. VOF/PDF markers are updated dynamically as the situation changes on the map.

Well, that's rather interesting. Not sure I like it, but if that's what Ben says, so be it. Seems to contradict RAW, IMO:

9.2.1. Type of Enemy Contact
"Place VOF/PDF? – Tells you whether or not the enemy immediately opens fire. Enemy forces that do not initially have a VOF/PDF will likely automatically open fire the moment the on-map situation changes during subsequent turns." [emphasis added]

I've considered that to be an exception to the 6.0 rule that units automatically and immediately open fire. Myself, I like that occasionally you get the jump on an enemy unit and get to shoot first.
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Peter Kossits
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"the enemy will open fire immediately"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben did not say this. In fact, he said to have that unit not fire at all until the end of combat which is more in the spirit of an enemy being surprised.
 
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Ron Lacock
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peterk1 wrote:
"the enemy will open fire immediately"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben did not say this. In fact, he said to have that unit not fire at all until the end of combat which is more in the spirit of an enemy being surprised.


I agree. It still sounds like the enemy does not fire at you for the first turn they are on the board. After combat they place their VOF/PDFs which means they will fire at you in the next turn.
 
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Ken Latall
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I copied and pasted his email. I DID NOT CHANGE IT IN ANYWAY. Maybe he's playing a cruel joke on me because I asked him to help me with a long list of questions. I have major anxiety and depression and spent hours, days and yes weeks, working on my questions; finally I sent a big mess to him for help. I've actually whittled my list down to 3 pages along with a few issues and questions still scattered in my main "Play" document. But it started as 13 pages. I also posted a long list of questions, hesitantly, because I didn't want everyone to think I wasn't trying to get answers on my own. I've worked my butt off to get the list to where it is today. I have a very high IQ and find things other people don't see. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but with 165 IQ I do see things that others don't. What makes it worse is the meds I'm on make me foggy and it's very difficult to concentrate.

Again, what I posted from Ben's email is as it was written to me. I saw a few days later that statements in the rules contradicted it, but I just figured the rules needed to be edited some more, just like they were from the 1st edition to the 2nd edition. (By the way, I had to quit the 1st edition because the rules were so bad. They've improved a lot!)

Thanks for all the help and I can assure you, I'm an honest person and wouldn't dare modify someone's email.

Ken
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Ron Lacock
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Quote:

• 6.0 Says, “Any unengaged enemy units will open fire on your friendly units as soon as your units become spotted in range of enemy Basic VOF.” This isn’t totally true. When first placing an enemy that doesn’t place VOF/PDF, even though you’re within range and LOS, the enemy doesn’t fire during combat. At the end of combat you resolve any Mine VOF that was triggered earlier in the turn. Finally, VOF/PDF Markers are update. This is when the enemy, that didn’t fire originally because he didn’t place any VOF/PDF, gets to finally place his VOF/PDF markers.


Ken,

We are not saying that you improperly represented what Ben said. What we are saying is that the way we read what he said was that the enemy doesn't fire during the first round of combat in which it was placed. I underlined it above. Then the after that first combat (where for a wonderful change we get the jump on them), when the VOFs and PDFs are updated, then the enemy gets to place their VOF/PDF markers. Then they will fire on the US units in the next round, meaning they are now returning fire.

No offense intended at all!

EDIT: I also think I may be misunderstanding what Ben said versus what you said in your message, so I may be quoting the wrong person!

In any case the way I have always played (as per 9.2.1) it is that in when PDF = No, then we got the jump on them. Maybe that is incorrect via some other rule? If so, it just became another house rule for me because it really feels right for it to work that way.



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Ken Latall
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I'm the one that wrote what's in the blue box. His response is under the blue box. My thoughts agreed with what both of you are saying, but he changed it, saying I was wrong. What he told me contradicts 9.2.4.

Thanks and have a great day!
Ken
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Peter Kossits
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Hi Ken,

Please don't get all worked up. I was just curious because that reply seemed to be cut into 2 parts - one is in a purple box saying it was quoted and then there was a followup right after that started with "I believe there is a misunderstanding here."

Did that "I believe there is a misunderstanding here." part come from Ben or was it an extrapolation from you after reading Ben's answer? I'm not sure one way or the other. If they both came from Ben, both answers are a bit contradictory.

-----------------------

Just read the above. I like the purple box answer better!
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Ken Latall
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He sent the email personally, but somehow, when I pasted it into the BGG forum, it looked just like normal posts. I asked the questions in the blue box and his response started with "I believe there is a misunderstanding here."

I'm trying my butt off to learn the game so I can stop experimenting with Mission 1 and play a real campaign, but I won't do that until I have all my questions answered. There will still be plenty of questions that pop up while I play the campaign. I currently have 3 lists about a page each: questions, comments I think I'm correct about but not sure, and a list of statements I deem to be correct, but need to incorporate them into my "Play" document for use. I've also got about 3 pages of questions that I haven't placed into one of the buckets yet. I asked Ben directly because the first time I posted 23 questions, the 1st answer told me about placing new enemy units on cards that already had enemy units on them and I knew that was wrong. I only trusted Ben. And now I have this mess.

Thanks and have a great day!
Ken
 
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Mark L
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klatall wrote:
He sent the email personally, but somehow, when I pasted it into the BGG forum, it looked just like normal posts. I asked the questions in the blue box and his response started with "I believe there is a misunderstanding here."

Indeed, I think Peter and Ron misread your post. I almost did too, until I recognized the text in the quote box as yours, verbatim from a previous post (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/800063/thoughts-on-how-to-pl...). I then surmised that the text that followed was probably Ben's response.

An aside: The quote box was due to the text being enclosed in a BGG guote tag [ q ][ /q ], but without the spaces. For even more formatting tricks, see this help page: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Forum_Formatting

Based on Ben's reply, I think several of us have been handling that differently. Tho, IMO, the rule I quoted (9.2.1) does seem to indicate the enemy unit won't open fire until the following turn.

I did some searching on CSW and BGG:

CSW: Ben Hull - Dec 25, 2008 12:47 am (#1230)

"The force package is saying he enemy is moving and does not place a PDF/VOF. Your forces, unless otherwise engaged, would open fire and place PDF/VOF. Enemy maneuver puts the shoe on the other foot, normally you must push forward into the waiting enemy, that package has the enemy pushing into your, hopefully, waiting arms."

This sort of implies the enemy unit doesn't open fire until after the Combat Phase, tho it's not exactly definitive about that.

OTOH, the following posts by Ben, all dated later, definitely reinforce the reply he sent you:

CSW: Ben Hull - Nov 20, 2009 11:05 am (#3396)
Cross-posted on BGG: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/4233012#4233012

CSW: Ben Hull - Dec 30, 2009 10:18 am (#3614)


Hmmm. Seems like the rules might need some tweaking.

CaanDo wrote:
In any case the way I have always played (as per 9.2.1) it is that in when PDF = No, then we got the jump on them. Maybe that is incorrect via some other rule? If so, it just became another house rule for me because it really feels right for it to work that way.

Me too! I think it appropriately mirrors the situation that's all too often faced by the player: enemy units appearing, unspotted, and getting a free shot at you.

In US offensive missions, whichever way you play it won't make too much of a difference, IMO, since you won't encounter many enemy packages like that. The biggest impact will be during defensive missions or enemy counterattacks, when you'll see more packages like this ("Maneuver" in Normandy, "Human Wave" in Korea or Vietnam). I haven't tried a defensive mission yet - I'll have to do so and see how it plays out.

klatall wrote:
I'm trying my butt off to learn the game so I can stop experimenting with Mission 1 and play a real campaign, but I won't do that until I have all my questions answered.

You may be waiting a long time, then. You are almost certain to encounter situations in the game that may not be adequately addressed in the rules. I think Ben is a rather busy person, and he won't weigh in here all the time (tho I always appreciate it when he does!). So you'll just have the opinions and interpretations of the rest of us. But several of us have been playing this game and following the forums for a long time, so there's some good group knowledge here. Tho you may also get conflicting opinions and interpretations. And, yeah, sometimes we may even be wrong! shake But, IMO, even Ben has contradicted or reversed himself at times.

My advice is to just dive in and play it as you best understand it. From your previous posts, you seem to have a good understanding of the command system and how VOF/PDF works, which is the core of the game. How you manage the enemy units is of secondary importance. It's a solitaire game. When you come across you an ambiguous situation, use your best judgement or make a random draw to pick between alternatives. Do so with the spirit of the rules in mind, as well as a rousing good fight!

Quote:
There will still be plenty of questions that pop up while I play the campaign. I currently have 3 lists about a page each: questions, comments I think I'm correct about but not sure, and a list of statements I deem to be correct, but need to incorporate them into my "Play" document for use. I've also got about 3 pages of questions that I haven't placed into one of the buckets yet.

Go easy on us, please!
 
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Peter Kossits
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I've been thinking about this one and Ben's answer a little bit.

When our guys get caught on the move and surprised. We're marked exposed, we're fired on and we get to fire back.

Doesn't it make sense for the Germans to also have that privilege? Maybe we're trying to look at the "we've surprised them" event through a bit too much of a microscope and the Exposed marker and lack of cover is enough compensation.

Still feels odd though since they will almost always place a VOF and it will usually(?) be against the unit that triggered the check. Makes the places VOF column in the enemy charts somewhat useless.
 
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Mark L
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peterk1 wrote:
When our guys get caught on the move and surprised. We're marked exposed, we're fired on and we get to fire back.

Can't fire back if enemy is unspotted.
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Ron Lacock
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peterk1 wrote:


When our guys get caught on the move and surprised. We're marked exposed, we're fired on and we get to fire back.



Bear in mind that often we don't get to fire back because the enemy is not spotted (next column over on the force package sheet). This means we don't get to fire back until we have a successful spot attempt. By that time we can be pretty chewed up.

The enemy units in the force packages that get 'No' PDF are patrols, probes, assaults, waves, trucks, etc. They are spotted and usually exposed because they are moving. I am perfectly comfortable with getting off the first shot (and being momentarily un-spotted by them) as far as Patrols, probes and trucks go.

Assaults and waves are questionable as they would be firing, albeit without much accuracy and maybe at generally un-spotted (to them) units.

Just my 2 cents.

When I come across situations where I'm not sure how to interpret a rule I just play it as close as I can to how it would have happened in real combat (to the limited extent of my knowledge) and move on so I don't get bogged down. Then I'll ask here on BGG later so I know how to do it right the next time.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Mark. That's what I get for having such a long answer.
 
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Peter Kossits
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Right you are guys. Forgot about that. I reverse my opinion. I'm going to keep blasting 'em!
 
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Ben Hull
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klatall wrote:
1- I'm very confused about the VOF/PDF? column when it says "No". "No" only means that the enemy places a VOF/PDF according to his normal priorities, but he will ALWAYS place a VOF/PDF because he always has the triggering unit to fire at. Is this correct?

2- 9.2.4 says, "When placed, enemy units will always target the unit that triggered their placement." But this isn't true if the VOF/PDF column is "No", correct?

3- Later, in 9.2.4 it says, "If the placement location drawn does not legally allow the enemy unit to target the triggering US unit, redraw for a different placement." But this doesn't matter is the VOF/PDF column is "No" and due to priorities, the enemy targets a different unit than the triggering unit.

4- Aside from placing packages with a +, you NEVER place a new enemy on a card that always has an enemy. And you don't place a new enemy along another enemy's existing PDF, correct?

Thanks for the help. I've had tons of questions and I'm getting through them, finally able to see the end of the tunnel, but still a ways to go.

Have a great day!
Ken


Sorry Ken, it helps if I double checked the rules. The original question you posed to me was from 6.1 Open Fire. The answer is explicit in 9.2.1 "Enemy forces that do not initially have a VOF/PDF
will likely automatically open fire the moment the on-map situation
changes during subsequent turns." So we do need to include this exception to 6.1.

It is important to note, that I do not rewrite rules on the fly in a discussion, I try to help with intent of clarity. Being human I do make mistakes, so as happened in this case, I apologize for any confusion caused.

Thanks,
Ben
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Ken Latall
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Can I please get an answer for each of the 4 questions. There are some many thoughts I want to make sure I understand each answer. Also, one thing I've thought of is if an enemy doesn't place a VOF/PDF on the triggering unit, can he be placed in visual range, but outside his firing range. And maybe this would only apply if he could fire at a different US unit (or maybe always, i.e. they see each other, but one of both are outside firing range.)

Thanks for the clarification by Ben and everyone else involved.
Ken
 
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Peter Kossits
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I'll have a go.

klatall wrote:
1- I'm very confused about the VOF/PDF? column when it says "No". "No" only means that the enemy places a VOF/PDF according to his normal priorities, but he will ALWAYS place a VOF/PDF because he always has the triggering unit to fire at. Is this correct?


He places a VOF at the end of combat on the turn he was placed. This enemy has been surprised and doesn't shoot on his first turn on board.


klatall wrote:
2- 9.2.4 says, "When placed, enemy units will always target the unit that triggered their placement." But this isn't true if the VOF/PDF column is "No", correct?


Correct. He fires according to the usual priorities (distance, size in steps, random).

klatall wrote:
3- Later, in 9.2.4 it says, "If the placement location drawn does not legally allow the enemy unit to target the triggering US unit, redraw for a different placement." But this doesn't matter is the VOF/PDF column is "No" and due to priorities, the enemy targets a different unit than the triggering unit.


Does not apply if "places VOF" is no. You place the enemy, but unfortunately you do not have the means to shoot at him.

klatall wrote:
4- Aside from placing packages with a +, you NEVER place a new enemy on a card that always has an enemy. And you don't place a new enemy along another enemy's existing PDF, correct?


Correct. No new enemies on cards having any trace of an enemy (even a pinned paralyzed one).

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Mark L
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Ken, based on Ben's reply here (thanks for chiming in, Ben!), I'd say Peter's answers are right on the money.

Quote:
Also, one thing I've thought of is if an enemy doesn't place a VOF/PDF on the triggering unit, can he be placed in visual range, but outside his firing range.

Yes, that's what I do (LOS permitting).

Quote:
And maybe this would only apply if he could fire at a different US unit (or maybe always, i.e. they see each other, but one of both are outside firing range.)

Place the enemy unit relative to the triggering US unit, without regard to other US units. Unengaged US units in range will open fire immediately. After the Combat Phase, the enemy unit will open fire if/when a US unit comes in range.

Have fun!
 
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Ken Latall
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Thanks for everyone's help. I've had to let it go for awhile. I get overwhelmed easily now, which sucks, but I can't do anything about it, but leave things alone when they bother me. Hopefully, I'll soon feel like working on the rest of my questions and will finally play a campaign.

Again, thanks for everyone's help.
Ken
 
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