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Richard III: The Wars of the Roses» Forums » General

Subject: HISTORICALLY CONFUSED. rss

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Freddy Dekker
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I must admit that I have become a bit confused.soblue

Now as I understand history, Richard III was king and in control of the country.

The other lot came over and tried to take the country.

Now from what I've ready Richard III is from the house of York.
So therefore he is one of the white roses.

But the game starts with the reds all over the map and the whites in exile.


The whole red white things is very confusing.
The York levies are a red block and for a moment I figured I must have gotten the labeling of the blocks wrong.shake

Is there even a block portraying Richard III?

{I really need to re-read my book on this war}



 
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Tiggo Morrison
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Yep, you really do need to re-read your book.
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Chris Dippel
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Perhaps the title is misleading.

This game covers a much larger span than simply the reign of Richard III.

It begins with King Henry VI on the throne, and Richard, the Duke of York (Richard III's father) preparing to wage war to claim the throne.

York believed himself in a stronger dynastic position because he was descended from the second son of Edward III (Lionel of Antwerp), whereas Henry VI was descended from Edward III's THIRD son (John of Gaunt, Duke of LANCASTER).

SO, York claims the throne and begins the WARS OF THE ROSES. That is where the game really begins.

As for where Richard III comes in, Richard of York has four sons:
Edward, Earl of March (later Edward IV)
Edmund, Earl of Rutland
George, Duke of Clarence
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (later Richard III)

Historically, York died in 1460, so when the House of York took the throne in 1461, his oldest son, Edward, became King Edward IV.

Then, for a year in 1470, the House of Lancaster took control again, and restored Henry VI to the throne.

But Edward IV took the throne back in 1471, and reigned until he died in 1483. During this reign, George, Duke of Clarence was imprisoned in the tower for treason, and died there (Shakespeare claims he was murdered on orders from Richard, Duke of Gloucester).

When Edward IV died, he had two sons:
Edward, age 12
Richard, age 9

Edward became Edward V, but he was too young to assume control by himself, so he was given a regency council to advise him until he came of age. This council was led by his uncle, Richard of Gloucester. Richard invited his nephews (both of them) to stay in the Tower of London, where they were never heard from again. (It is still one of the great murder-mysteries in English history). While they were locked away, Uncle Richard managed to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Edward V's birth, and managed to get himself crowned Richard III.

After a short, two-year reign, Richard was forced to defend his crown when Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, the last surviving (male) Lancaster claimant returned to England to overthrow the Usurper King.

Richard lost, Henry won, and after he claimed his crown, he married Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV and would unite the LANCASTER and YORK families in their children, including the future King Henry VIII.

There's a VERY brief history. Hope it helps. This is a TERRIFIC game!

Best,
Chris
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks Chris.


My confusion was caused by my assuming this was about the 1485 campaing.
The picture on the box had me confused [because of the red medal shown] that he must be one of the reds.
A logical mistake of course seeing the title of the game.
Probably the wrong title for the game anyway, but than 'war of the roses'was allready taken by mr. Hawes for his game. [got that to]

And of course the whole situation seemed simular to the one that found it's climax at Bosworth field.
Watching the re-enactment there,is what got me interested.

Bought and read a book about 10 years ago.
It's time I read it again, and use the game to make it easier to visualize things.


From what I've read this apparently is the situation at the start of the 1470 campaign.


Thanks again for explaining.
Currently writing a short translation for my son and looking forward to playing.
The game seems to give you a good impression of the confusion that reigned with all the turn coat families and the politics...


As you seem an expert on the subject.

What do you think of the latest game CROWN OF ROSES.





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Chris Dippel
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Hi Freddy,
I haven't looked deeply at Crown of Roses, but I have it ordered and I anxiously await it.
I am far from an expert, but I am a big English history fan.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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So you'll be able to explain the Duke of Exeter to me.

Apparently he is a heir for one side, but can change sides and become a regular noble for the other side.


I will go and look hm up on wiki, but it seems strange to me.
 
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Chris Dippel
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Exeter was the son-in-law of Richard of York, and brother-in-law of Edward IV. Historically, I don't think he ever wavered in his support of the House of Lancaster, but I think in this game he can flip sides to balance out Clarence, who, in fact, did switch sides - twice.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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I aggree, from what I've read, historically he would be the last guy to waver.

Clarence sure did.


Pitty they had to sacrifice history for game purpose.
wonder if there wouldn't have been an other solution for that....
I mean I would probably have prefered to keep both nobles on one side, rather than go with the unhistorical Exeter option.

When thinking about it, I find the name of the game ever more wrong.
Allthouhg he in the end was probably the most famous of the lot, in this game he is just the most minor of heirs you can find and doesn't even start on the map.

I wonder about the York levies and York minster supporting the enemies of the house of York, I supposed the family wasn't very popular locally?
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Okay Chris.

Lets see if you know the answer to this one.

I wondered about the treachery roles...

Why is it that WARWICK apparenlty has an easier job to convince KENT and SALISBURY.
Okay, I get SALISBURY, as they were related, but what's the deal with KENT?
Also related?

NORTHUMBERLAND and WESTMORELAND apparently can't be convinced by Warwick.
Oh I get it, apparently there was a feude between those families and the WARWICKS.

It may all be politics, but it is indeed equally fascinating as it is complicated.

Now I must go find out why the city and minster of York oposed the York family...
 
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Santi Velasco
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cdippel71 wrote:

[snip]


Hey, you just forgot one of the most important characters! how about Edmund, Duke of Edinburgh?
 
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Simon Blackwell
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Covered that very well which as a re-enactor of the period myself I couldnt possibly write such a neutral account without insulting the evil child murdering, marmite loving, hunchback of the title of the game..........er oops.
The only thing I'd add is that of course the game is a bit abstract in order to make it playable but in my opinion it perfectly captures the flavour of the period. The treachery rules can play havoc with your forces and given the times it actually happened (Northampton, Bosworth, maybe even Tewksbury etc) and the effect on the outcome of these battles its a great rule.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Simonsmrt wrote:
the evil child murdering, marmite loving, hunchback of the title of the game..........er oops.


I am not an expert on the period, allthough I've read about it and even more so after buying this game.
Nevertheless I'm surprised at your statement, especially as you say you are a re-enactor of the period.

Me thinks you've read some books by authors who didn't like the guy.

Having said that, I do think they've picked a wrong name for the game as it is not about him at all.

 
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Reinhard Mueller
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sagitar wrote:
Having said that, I do think they've picked a wrong name for the game as it is not about him at all.

They picked "Richard III" because it is meant to be a series of games based on Shakespeare plays. The other one is "Julius Caesar". The next one will probably be "Romeo and Juliet"?
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Chris Dippel
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Let's not forget that the first in line for the throne on the Yorkist side is RICHARD, Duke of York, who, upon his usurpation, would have become RICHARD III. So there's that.

(Granted the picture on the cover is Shakespeare's "hunchbacked toad")
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks guys, I hadn't caught on to the Shakespeare connection.

To know or not to know.......

So Chris, what you are saying that the Richard III the game refers to is a possible Richard III and not the same person as the one we've come to know as RIII through history.

This whole brittish nobelty and the relations etc, it's a tangled web.
 
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Simon Blackwell
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sagitar wrote:
[q="Simonsmrt"] the evil child murdering, marmite loving, hunchback of the title of the game..........er oops.



As a re-enactor thats just the reason why I made the statement.
If you portray a historical household/noble who was a loyal staunch ally of one side (which in this period of treachery was not necassarily the norm) then the likelihood is that you wont have a very high opinion of a usurping child murderer!! tongue firmly in cheek
 
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Freddy Dekker
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As an ECW re-enanctor, I have equally warm feelings towards roundheads.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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etagimbo wrote:
They picked "Richard III" because it is meant to be a series of games based on Shakespeare plays. The other one is "Julius Caesar". The next one will probably be "Romeo and Juliet"?

I thought they announced the last of the Shakespeare game trilogy would be "Henry V" on the 100 Years War.
 
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Robin Brown
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etagimbo wrote:
sagitar wrote:
Having said that, I do think they've picked a wrong name for the game as it is not about him at all.

They picked "Richard III" because it is meant to be a series of games based on Shakespeare plays. The other one is "Julius Caesar". The next one will probably be "Romeo and Juliet"?



I so want to play "Romeo and juliet" the block war game.!
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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malletman wrote:
etagimbo wrote:
sagitar wrote:
Having said that, I do think they've picked a wrong name for the game as it is not about him at all.

They picked "Richard III" because it is meant to be a series of games based on Shakespeare plays. The other one is "Julius Caesar". The next one will probably be "Romeo and Juliet"?

I so want to play "Romeo and juliet" the block war game.!

You would think they'd go with "Merchant of Venice" and snag the eurogamer vote.
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