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Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » Rules

Subject: Marsh and pasture rss

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Mark Solino
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Rochester
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Do these tiles contain landscape features which a soldier can use to Hide, or are they considered open ground? I apologize in advance if this has been asked before.
 
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Eric Lai
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Can't remember what the pasture looks like, but you can definitely hide anywhere in the swamp. If the pasture is the one with the fields, then you can initiate hide in that too. Pretty much any terrain feature is fair game.
 
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Greg
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I believe anything except open grass and roads are considered to be terrain features and can be used to take cover.
 
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Ubergeek
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Pasture is open and you can't hide. For some reason I'm thinking the swamp is open area as well that you can't hide in. Again, a good tell is whether there is a negative hide modifier in the square.
 
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Greg
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I believe it was stated that only road and grass don't give you cover and everything else can be used for cover. The negative modifier wasn't necessarily the determining factor.
 
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Ubergeek
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Quote:
The negative modifier wasn't necessarily the determining factor.


Correct. It's not. I didn't want to give the impression that it is. A few of the clear squares with no cover also have no hide or a positive hide modifier.
 
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Andrew DiGregorio
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we actually had the issue of taking cover in a pasture occur this past weekend at our "Day of SMG". In the end, we agreed with greg's assesment that you can only NOT take cover on roads or open grass, so we allowed taking cover in pastures...
 
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Chris Ganshaw
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In order to take cover, there soldier's dog tag must be "sitting in terrain" where they are able to take cover. Every example that I have seen shows a terrain feature printed on the base terrain of the square. Since neither the Marsh or the Pasture have any such bush, tree, etc. I don't think they offer any cover.
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Greg
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I remember just the other day reading a post by Jeff that said that only the green grass and road didn't offer cover. I wish I could remember where that post was, but after just looking around for a few minutes I can't find it again, but for some reason it stuck in my mind.
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Rob Koch
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We have always played marsh and pasture the same. As Chris mentioned, there is no "feature" so we assume no hiding. Just like being in a square with a feature, if you are not touching it you can't hide.

This would seem to be in the spirit of the rules (simplicity). If you are not obviously touching something that isn't open or roads then you have no ability to hide.

While it could be argued that while one is hip deep in marsh with reeds, you are also making quite a bit of noise and those same reeds are giving away you position as you move.

The best bet would be to post it on the FAW thread that Jerry has been running to get it officially answered.


-Rob
 
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Greg
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robkoch2112 wrote:
We have always played marsh and pasture the same. As Chris mentioned, there is no "feature" so we assume no hiding. Just like being in a square with a feature, if you are not touching it you can't hide.

This would seem to be in the spirit of the rules (simplicity). If you are not obviously touching something that isn't open or roads then you have no ability to hide.

While it could be argued that while one is hip deep in marsh with reeds, you are also making quite a bit of noise and those same reeds are giving away you position as you move.

The best bet would be to post it on the FAW thread that Jerry has been running to get it officially answered.


-Rob


Actually, since you mentioned it Rob, I was going to post that question in the FAQ thread but read through it first just to make sure it wasn't already there, and I found this:

Quote:
Q: What defines open Terrain?
A: All the areas that are clear ground (grassy/green) a road or scenario defined.
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Brian
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Good FAQ reference.

No example that I can think of can be given for a tile possessing a negative hide modifier that either does not possess any cover or isn't itself inherently considered cover. It seems then that by default a tile with a negative hide modifier must therefore be considered as containing cover or itself being cover.

Then the entire marsh tile provides cover by default with its -2 hide modifier.

The pasture falls under the grassy conditions of open terrain lacking adequate cover to augment hiding and as such does not fulfill the game definition of cover, but as stated earlier by others, this is not solely defined by the absence of any negative hide modifiers on that tile.

The difference is that a tile that does not possess a negative hide modifier therefore does not also absolutely preclude someone from having any cover, it just might be poor cover with a neutral hide modifier of zero. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you may not hide in that terrain unless it is road, green/grassy or completely devoid of terrain features which you must have your soldier's dog tag in.

Conversely, a tile with a positive hide modifier always represents the penalty for being in open terrain actually absent any cover whatsoever, such as roads, heightened bare topography and/or short grass whilst attempting to become unspotted.
 
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Chris Ganshaw
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Boys, I think I am going to backpedal a little. I've been pouring over the rules and think I have had a change of heart regarding both the Marsh and Pasture. On page 19 of the rule book, right next to the section on Dog Tags, there is an "important" box and it states "Terrain is any image on the map that is not a Road or clear ground". Well I don't think anyone can argue that both the Marsh and Pasture, are neither roads nor open ground. Therefore, if ones Dog Tag is in those "terrains", you should be albe to try to get cover. This would be the same for using the walls or gravestone in the graveyard, or even the well by the building.
Thoughts?
 
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Ubergeek
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I've known that was in the rules from the first time I read them. I still think that meadow and marsh are open ground. Eventually Jeff will probably chime in and clear it all up. Until then I don't think it will hurt anything playing it either way so long as everyone agrees up front on what to allow.
 
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Greg
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I agree Chis and I've seen that part of the rulebook as well. Roads are obvious to determine, and to me "clear ground" is the light green grass that is in part of every tile at least in part. The game I played last night had the Marsh and Pasture, and there were little parts of the light green that could not offer cover in the Marsh tile amongst all the mostly marshy terrain and a little bit of the light green in the Pasture around the edges. The darker green of the Pasture could be taller grass that can offer "cover" as compared to shorter light green grass.

Speaking of the Marsh, it was funny last night when one of my opponent's figures was pinned in the Marsh. The soldier had a normal move of 4 that got halved to 2 when pinned. The Marsh has a -2 Move modifier so his soldier was stuck there as he was unable to pull a Hide action to rally the soldier. I didn't feel sorry for him as he was able to draw a lot of Shoot actions when he needed them.
 
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Greg
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Walt Mulder wrote:
I've known that was in the rules from the first time I read them. I still think that meadow and marsh are open ground. Eventually Jeff will probably chime in and clear it all up. Until then I don't think it will hurt anything playing it either way so long as everyone agrees up front on what to allow.



Quote:
Q: What defines open Terrain?
A: All the areas that are clear ground (grassy/green) a road or scenario defined.


Above, the FAQ post on the subject at least qualifies clear ground as (grassy/green). I take that to mean the lighter green that's everywhere is the grassy green, but not the dark green of the Pasture. Either way, that does leave the non-grassy green parts of the Marsh as available cover.

Once again, there is no hard defined answer. Grassy green to me may be different from grassy green to someone else.

I certainly don't know how there can be any kind of tournament scene for this game if there aren't firm answers to the many questions like this that come up every day. If this game is ever going to be more than a casual game amongst friends, where at least you can set some ground rules to unanswered questions ahead of time with house rules, there needs to be some better defined terms and rules that are documented and can be referred to by the tournament directors, so players know what to expect when they play.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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When I raised this with Jeff it was about Marsh and his reply was yes Marsh is cover, as is everything except road and grassy/green or scenario defined. Hence the answer in the Q&A thread.

At the time we only had the DoD terrain but the open ground is fairly obvious once you realise its nearest counterpart is the Marsh and that is purple. The real guide is the cover modifier, its a giveaway if the whole tile is green and their is no cover modifier.

In miniature tournaments the terrain is either documented or explained before play commences. For SMG this would not take very long, the same for casual play.
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Greg
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Sounds good Jerry
 
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