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Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: Classic vs Android Card Comparison rss

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Ludovic schmidt
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made a comment on one of the larger threads that one of the new ICE had a price that was 'out of whack' with the Netrunner:Classic cards.

Here's an example of what he's talking about.



The card on the left, from Netrunner:Classic, is a Wall with 8 rez cost, 4 strength and two subroutines to end the run.

The card on the right is a new concept card from Android:Netrunner. It has a cost of 9, 7 strength and again two subroutines to end the run.

They are remarkably similar cards, but Hadrian's Wall, for one additional rez cost, gives us +3 strength and the ability to spend more on the ICE for additional improvements (if the wall strength later proves to be inadequate).

That's a lot for a bit.

Part of me is happy about this, Walls (now barriers) always seemed to be rather expensive for what they did, especially when faced with a worm or pile driver that just destroyed the wall for a few measly bits on the Runner's behalf. The other part of me is acutely aware that there will be a new economy to be aware of, learn, and adapt to.


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Oliver
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Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this, but im just getting into the game with a starter pack and im wondering if all costs are paid with bits? The rez cost for ICE on original nr cards does not have the bit type circle thing around it, so i have to make sure.
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Ian Toltz
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In Magic, at least, up until around Tempest creatures were hilariously over-costed and under-powered, and tournaments were dominated by creatureless or creature-light decks. Frequently, if a deck had creatures, it was only an afterthought because the deck was designed to lock the opponent down and then could win with anything.

I don't have much experience with classic Netrunner, but I could totally see something similar being the case. In fact, you yourself said that walls were typically over-costed for what they did. This seems like a step in the right direction.
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"Weyland Consortium: Break down THIS, you weefs."
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OliverOil wrote:
Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this, but im just getting into the game with a starter pack and im wondering if all costs are paid with bits? The rez cost for ICE on original nr cards does not have the bit type circle thing around it, so i have to make sure.


Probably better in the Netrunner forums since it's about the Classic game. I recommend you go read this ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/736406/guide-how-to-play... )and if there's any further questions, post a new thread (I wouldn't comment on the existing 'how to play' as it's kind of old) in the forums there with your specific needs where you'll get lots of help.
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David Boeren
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By default (unless it says otherwise) all costs are paid in bits in the old game. I would expect it to remain the same in the new game.


Fixing balance issues is a good thing, so if the old version was underpowered for its cost then buffing it up is the right thing to do. Ideally all cards should be useful. I don't know whether this amount of strength is the exact amount needed to be worth the price, that's up to the playtesters.

It's also possible they've rescaled the strength numbers - stretching them out so there is a little more resolution. If a lot of ice and icebreakers have bigger numbers than before then that would explain why. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for the long-term anyway, gives you more design space for future ice/icebreaker cards.
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byronczimmer wrote:
OliverOil wrote:
Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this, but im just getting into the game with a starter pack and im wondering if all costs are paid with bits? The rez cost for ICE on original nr cards does not have the bit type circle thing around it, so i have to make sure.


Probably better in the Netrunner forums since it's about the Classic game. I recommend you go read this ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/736406/guide-how-to-play... )and if there's any further questions, post a new thread (I wouldn't comment on the existing 'how to play' as it's kind of old) in the forums there with your specific needs where you'll get lots of help.


I actually did read that but thanks for your help!
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Jens Kreutzer
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In "classic" Netrunner, walls used to be about a bit more expensive than a code gate of the same power level. Why? Because walls made the Runner use either noisy icebreakers, getting in the way of a stealth approach, or worms (vulnerable to the Aardvark upgrade, and more expensive than noisy wallbreakers). Plus, there was Japanese Water Torture, which was neither noisy nor worm, but let's not say anything more about it.

So, there was a reason why walls in the classic game were more expensive.
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James 3
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OliverOil wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
OliverOil wrote:
Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this, but im just getting into the game with a starter pack and im wondering if all costs are paid with bits? The rez cost for ICE on original nr cards does not have the bit type circle thing around it, so i have to make sure.


Probably better in the Netrunner forums since it's about the Classic game. I recommend you go read this ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/736406/guide-how-to-play... )and if there's any further questions, post a new thread (I wouldn't comment on the existing 'how to play' as it's kind of old) in the forums there with your specific needs where you'll get lots of help.


I actually did read that but thanks for your help!


in the example above by BT, the 8 and 9 are equivalent. the look of rez costs is different in the card design of old and new, but are equivalent and always paid in bits.
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Rik Van Horn
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Also, since we haven't seen the new icebreaking programs, we don't really know if there are more efficient ones in the new set to match the increased effectiveness of the ice card we've seen.
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Rokkr wrote:
Also, since we haven't seen the new icebreaking programs, we don't really know if there are more efficient ones in the new set to match the increased effectiveness of the ice card we've seen.


 


We've only seen one, which is similar in cost to the classic 'Hammer', but without the concepts of noisy/stealth.

Without any other cards in consideration (cards that pay for program use, for example)... this ICE Breaker will take 7 bits to fully break this ICE:
5 (to raise strength to 7)
2 (to break 2 subroutines)

Every Bit the Corp spends on an ADVANCEMENT ACTION would cost the Runner 1 bit for every run through this fort afterwards.

To me, this means that this ICE breaker (Corroder) is meant for low level 'standard' walls (in the 0-5 strength range) which only have a single 'End Run' subroutine on them, similar to the old 'Wall, Wall 2.0 {such an original name}' line in Classic. With the reduced card count of the core set, I'm not expecting to see the full gamut of walls ranging from strength 0-5 in the initial card offering, but would more expect to see only a few at key strengths.
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David Boeren
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Yes, with an install cost of 2 I would agree - it's meant to deal with low level walls and priced accordingly. It can take out a higher wall if you need it to, but if you need to do that repeatedly you'd be better off with a more advanced icebreaker.

The noisy mechanic being the reason that classic walls were a little higher priced makes sense - but I don't think enough was done with noisy to really justify it. The main thing was that there were stealth programs which gave you free bits to use on icebreakers but couldn't be used on noisy icebreakers. This was seldom a problem though because you would typically just use them on a different piece of ice in the same fort (most forts have more than one and they're probably not all Walls). So, good idea for a mechanic but didn't quite get implemented perfectly.

Noisy is probably going to be streamlined out of the new version would be my guess since we don't see it here and it's not that important. If they want to have a similar effect, you could just write your Stealth program to say "this program provides X bits to pay for icebreakers, but not Wall icebreakers". This would effectively make all Wall icebreakers "noisy" by default without needing a special keyword for it.
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Jon Crider
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dboeren wrote:
Fixing balance issues is a good thing, so if the old version was underpowered for its cost then buffing it up is the right thing to do. Ideally all cards should be useful.


I agree with this. Also, since Netrunner has been around a long time, it might be more clear as to which balance issues need to be fixed.

That being said, I feel like FFG have made some pretty bad cards in the LOTR LCG. Some of the cards in there were pretty OP, but they only gave you 1 in the base set so apparently that was OK. On the other hand other cards are practically useless.

I wonder who they've got to help them with the game design on this. It would be sweet if Richard Garfield was one of them. It would also be sweet if they got some more experienced current players to help.
 
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Andy Mills
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I know they asked Garfield if he'd like to be on the dev team, but he declined, citing schedule conflicts.

He did give FFG his blessing, though, and I'm sure they're consulting with him occasionally.
 
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dboeren wrote:
The noisy mechanic being the reason that classic walls were a little higher priced makes sense - but I don't think enough was done with noisy to really justify it. The main thing was that there were stealth programs which gave you free bits to use on icebreakers but couldn't be used on noisy icebreakers. This was seldom a problem though because you would typically just use them on a different piece of ice in the same fort (most forts have more than one and they're probably not all Walls). So, good idea for a mechanic but didn't quite get implemented perfectly.


Remember that I tended to play sealed deck type formats over constructed, so take this with a grain of salt...

One of my favorite tactics was to put a wall as the outer most ICE of the fort after it had 2-3 other ICE on it.

If they used a Noisy Wall Breaker, like Pile Driver, then all of their Stealth bits evaporated as the Runner Noisily announced their presence at the opening firewall. Once inside, any stealth they had left could be expected to be used on the remaining ICE, but at least the initial Wall put a dent in the freebies.

If they were using stealthy wall breakers, those tended to cost more overall.
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dboeren wrote:
Noisy is probably going to be streamlined out of the new version would be my guess since we don't see it here and it's not that important. If they want to have a similar effect, you could just write your Stealth program to say "this program provides X bits to pay for icebreakers, but not Wall icebreakers". This would effectively make all Wall icebreakers "noisy" by default without needing a special keyword for it.


Note, this doesn't account for the loss of 'stealthy' bits if any 'noisy' breaker is used, which was a critical part of the noise/stealth dichotomy.

We'll see. Provided there's room on either side in the price calculations for modifications like stealth/noise then they won't have designed themselves into a corner.

I really am hoping for a new installment of card teasers to allow better insight into the underlying economic costs upon which the cards are based.
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David Boeren
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Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten that noisy programs also caused you to lose those bits provided by the stealth program. I was just thinking of them not being usable by the noisy icebreaker itself.

So, to account for that it would also have to say on the stealth program that you lose those bits, but I think that this can still be accounted for by text on the stealth card only.

My guess is that FFG will incorporate a tapping (or whatever they call it) sort of mechanism for this rather than make players stack bit markers on the cards as we once did. So, the stealth program would say something like "tap this card to reduce the cost to use a non-barrier icebreaker by X bits. If a barrier icebreaker is used on a run, tap this card."

Look good now?
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dboeren wrote:
Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten that noisy programs also caused you to lose those bits provided by the stealth program. I was just thinking of them not being usable by the noisy icebreaker itself.

So, to account for that it would also have to say on the stealth program that you lose those bits, but I think that this can still be accounted for by text on the stealth card only.


I like the concepts of keeping the interactions on the card itself.

I'd love to see the concepts of noisy/stealth and trace auctions be maintained, but trust that if they add value, then they can add value later in the series. It's fairly certain that the first 252 cards are not all that's planned, especially if there's a monthly distribution model in the works, and that a few months into the process there will be a much richer card selection and more mechanics will be explored to handle the additional cards.
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David Boeren
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No, 252 is only the beginning of another monthly subscription cost

I was just thinking, you could also move the noisy idea to specific ice rather than the icebreaker.

For instance, a Nightingale ice might set off alarms that tap all stealth programs when encountered. Or it might be a subroutine effect - break this subroutine or else the alarms go off.

I think that new subroutine types are one of the things that hasn't been explored that much yet so I'd like to see more new effects beyond damage, end the run, and trace. There are some, but additional new ones would be cool.
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dboeren wrote:
No, 252 is only the beginning of another monthly subscription cost

yeah, bracing for it...

Quote:
I think that new subroutine types are one of the things that hasn't been explored that much yet so I'd like to see more new effects beyond damage, end the run, and trace. There are some, but additional new ones would be cool.



From memory, classic subroutines could:

End the Run (pretty darn critical to the Corp if I do say so myself)
Trace
Trash a Program (of the Corp's choice)
Trash a Hardware (of Corp's choice - deck, chips, etc)
Net Damage
Brain Damage
Meat Damage (Homewrecker?)
Make later subroutine-breaks cost more bits
Initiate Run Ban (Runner unable to initiate Runs until some number of bits are paid (I've seen this referred to as an IP ban))
Disable jack-outs for remainder of run
Stun Runner (Force runner to encounter the next piece of ICE's subroutines)

Possible new concepts:
Gain Resource ban (Runner unable to draw cards until some number of bits are paid off)
Playing Card ban (Runner unable to play cards (preps/programs/resources/etc) until some number of bits are paid off)
Frozen accounts (loss of some number of bits - this feels more like an Operation though)
Move Runner to a different fort (oooooo, that'd be fun)
Give the Corp bits
Steal bits from the Runner



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Big Head Zach
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Another couple classic subroutines:

Disable jack-outs
Force runner to encounter the next piece of ICE's subroutines (the Stun effect)
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bhz1 wrote:
Another couple classic subroutines:

Disable jack-outs
Force runner to encounter the next piece of ICE's subroutines (the Stun effect)


Added, not bad for 10+ year old wetware memory modules though.
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David Boeren
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A somewhat common trope in cyberspace stories is ice that makes you unable to jack out - trapping you in its coils...

Perhaps there could be an ice that makes you resume your run on that ice the first action of each turn until you break the subroutine or pay some other penalty (trashing programs? Give up a few actions?) to break free. You would also be unable to run other forts until you were free of this one.

Naturally you wouldn't want this sort of subroutine on an ice that also does damage or it's pretty much game ending, but if that's all it does it provides (IMHO) an interesting new type of trap for the Runner to fall into but hopefully not overpowered.

In a sense it's a variant of the IP ban but sort of in reverse.
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dboeren wrote:
A somewhat common trope in cyberspace stories is ice that makes you unable to jack out - trapping you in its coils...

Perhaps there could be an ice that makes you resume your run on that ice the first action of each turn until you break the subroutine or pay some other penalty (trashing programs? Give up a few actions?) to break free. You would also be unable to run other forts until you were free of this one.

Naturally you wouldn't want this sort of subroutine on an ice that also does damage or it's pretty much game ending, but if that's all it does it provides (IMHO) an interesting new type of trap for the Runner to fall into but hopefully not overpowered.

In a sense it's a variant of the IP ban but sort of in reverse.


That's kind of how I always viewed the 'IP ban' cards in the past -- which is your old avatar is 'stuck' in the matrix until you spend some resources (bits) to 'unlock it'. And if you had no bits that was potentially 3 actions (gain bit, gain bit, spend bits as action) to get unlocked... Definite time waster.

Interesting idea though, just not sure how to represent it.
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What I don't think has been pointed out is that the new piece of ICE looks like it belongs to the Weyland faction. Therefore it's very hard to do any kind of meaningful balance analysis.

And, to be blunt, I'm not sure I want the developers to be balancing against Netrunner 96. I want FFG to focus their efforts on ensuring that Android: Netrunner is well balanced within its own Rules & cards.

They may well change the cards further, sadly this discussion is pure speculation until we get the cards in our grubby paws.
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