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Subject: A community request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata? rss

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Tom
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Hello,

There's a thread on Yucata: http://www.yucata.de/en/Forum?ForumID=4&postid=23772 where Brer Bear didn't rule out the possibility of implementing some community rules changes, however he would like this issue to be consulted with Martin Wallace first. As many of you probably know, Tim develops a promising variant that needs to be tested and Yucata would be a perfect environment for it.

Since it's us who want to implement those rules changes more than Yucata administrators, I think it's us who should ask Martin Wallace for it. I'm not sure how to do it, though. A petition would be too official maybe and possibly unnecessary, especially if there are people here who personally know Martin Wallace or have a contact with him - and can ask him directly in a way that could convince him to give his blessing for Yucata's administators to allow to implement community rules changes on the site as unofficial variants (while keeping the official rules as a deafault setting, of course).

That's why I'd like to ask what do you think about it and if there's someone who could contact Martin Wallace and could possibly convince him to do it?
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Kay Wilke
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here. We have the game online, so we do have a stable working relationship with Martin Wallace. If we have a question we can talk to him ourselves.

I don't see where a petition or some third-party involvement would be beneficial.

You can talk to whomever you want but make sure that you point out that you are NOT talking/asking on behalf of Yucata.de.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Note that he Treefrog website reports that Martin is away until early June.
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Tom
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Sparhawk wrote:
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here. We have the game online, so we do have a stable working relationship with Martin Wallace. If we have a question we can talk to him ourselves.

I don't see where a petition or some third-party involvement would be beneficial.

You can talk to whomever you want but make sure that you point out that you are NOT talking/asking on behalf of Yucata.de.

Well, I'm sure you realize that I'm not speaking on Yucata's behalf here nor urge or agitate for someone to do it? Brer Bear said he did not refuse to implement community rules changes but would like this issue to be consulted with Martin Wallace first. At the same time he didn't say he will contact Martin Wallace for any permission, so I guess someone else would have to do it.

Or maybe Yucata will contact Martin Wallace themselves on this issue? Maybe you can tell us if you are going to do it or not, because for now I see Brer Bear seems to be for it if there's a MW's permission. If you are not going to ask him, someone else should, right? Or else we'll be left in limbo forevermore.
 
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
For those of us without a Yucata account (and free though it may be, just not needing one right now) could someone summarize the proposal(s) here please.
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Tom
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Dearlove wrote:
Note that he Treefrog website reports that Martin is away until early June.

Of course it's not an instantaneous proposal and it can wait until Martin Wallace finds the time to consider this issue.
 
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Clyde W
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Yeah, if Tim has a fix, post it here! I'll playtest it on my own.
 
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Gavan Brown
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
I'm on board... If MW is willing. I think it would be best though gather up the more popular suggestions, especially in regards to the governor card and it's usage, and centralize them.

We really have to identify the ROOT of the problem, rather than simply trying to reduce the effectiveness of the HH. Addressing only the HH will result in a swing the opposite direction with French winning 100% of matches, because the HH is currently the only thing that stops the French from executing their unbeatable strategy of development spamming.

I believe this can only be achieved by increasing the minimum number of cards each player's deck can contain, thereby reintroducing the element of randomness back into the game (a fundamental necessity of deck building).
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Tom
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Tim was sending his rules changes proposals to those who requested it and said it needs plenty of playtesting to fine tune in order to find the right balance. I hope a collaboration between Tim and Brer Bear can be established if there's a permission to allow to implement community rules on Yucata.de. We all could only benfit from it.

And it would only need to allow to play with the 1st edition rules with few minor changes, so it wouldn't require much work from Brer Bear if the 1st edition rules game engine is still available for him.
 
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Kay Wilke
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
solkan1 wrote:

Or maybe Yucata will contact Martin Wallace themselves on this issue? Maybe you can tell us if you are going to do it or not, because for now I see Brer Bear seems to be for it if there's a MW's permission. If you are not going to ask him, someone else should, right? Or else we'll be left in limbo forevermore.


If I have the need to talk to an author or publisher I'll do it. I got a lot of practice. The last thing I need is someone trying to help us communicate. This has happened before and the effect is normally not positive. Publishers like to have one contact and for them it is not easily visible who is speaking on behalf of whom.

It is plainly none of your business if, how often and about what I am communicating with authors/publishers. Just let us do our work, so far, I think, we did a good job.
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Gavan Brown
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Sparhawk wrote:
solkan1 wrote:

Or maybe Yucata will contact Martin Wallace themselves on this issue? Maybe you can tell us if you are going to do it or not, because for now I see Brer Bear seems to be for it if there's a MW's permission. If you are not going to ask him, someone else should, right? Or else we'll be left in limbo forevermore.


If I have the need to talk to an author or publisher I'll do it. I got a lot of practice. The last thing I need is someone trying to help us communicate. This has happened before and the effect is normally not positive. Publishers like to have one contact and for them it is not easily visible who is speaking on behalf of whom.

It is plainly none of your business if, how often and about what I am communicating with authors/publishers. Just let us do our work, so far, I think, we did a good job.


Kay, not sure what you are getting all up in arms about. The people here are simply trying to help out. We've been sitting around waiting for this game to fix itself for nearly a year, and it doesn't seem to be happening. I commend Tom for his efforts to attempt to spearhead this and I seriously hope Yucata and MW embrace this as an opportunity.
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Tom
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Re: A request to Martin Wallace to allow the community rules changes to be implemented on Yucata?
Sparhawk wrote:
If I have the need to talk to an author or publisher I'll do it. I got a lot of practice. The last thing I need is someone trying to help us communicate. This has happened before and the effect is normally not positive. Publishers like to have one contact and for them it is not easily visible who is speaking on behalf of whom.

It is plainly none of your business if, how often and about what I am communicating with authors/publishers. Just let us do our work, so far, I think, we did a good job.

That is for sure very helpful and informative response with a highly-cultured tone on top of it...

Of course everything is dependent on Yucata and nothing will happen if you don't want it. But if Brer Bear suggests it isn't impossible providing a certain sine qua non condition, I think it should be openly said who's going to try to make this condition happen.

Because there's no point in being willing to do something with a permission but not willing to ask for the permission and not allowing anyone else to ask for this permission at the same time.
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Ken Dilloo
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Hey guys, just a thought, but let's maybe not kill the rabbit here. The good folks at Yucata have provided us with a pretty fantastic and free medium to play this game, and Martin was gracious enough to give the permission for them to do that. While it would be nice of them to appease every request, there is probably a lot that goes into making that happen.

Understandably, the community is hungry to take the flaw out of this flawed masterpiece, and it is your great site that will likely provide the medium to do that. It would be great if we could all work to make that happen, and we all appreciate everyone efforts to do that.
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Tom
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bigloo33 wrote:
Hey guys, just a thought, but let's maybe not kill the rabbit here. The good folks at Yucata have provided us with a pretty fantastic and free medium to play this game, and Martin was gracious enough to give the permission for them to do that. While it would be nice of them to appease every request, there is probably a lot that goes into making that happen.

Understandably, the community is hungry to take the flaw out of this flawed masterpiece, and it is your great site that will likely provide the medium to do that. It would be great if we could all work to make that happen, and we all appreciate everyone efforts to do that.


Ken, I'm sure you could have very well replaced Kevin Spacey in "The Negotiator"

By the way, I've finally started to play at Yucata since your recommendation, I've also played a few games solo and gathered some thoughts on my variant proposal. The naval blockade will not be enough but I think I know what needs to be added.

Regarding Governor, I like the best what Gavan suggested. Make it an action instead of a card and allow to governor 1 card when you have more than 15 cards or 2 cards if you have more than 20 cards in deck.

But I sense this discussion is futile given Sparhawks reaction here. Brer Bear might be willing to do it, but it looks like he won't be given the permission and I don't mean the permission from Martin Wallace. Look, the simple "go ahead if you like" from Martin Wallace would NOT oblige them to do anything since it'd be an unofficial variant, but suddenly there's shaking fist and passive-aggressiveness as soon as I make this proposal. I honestly don't understad this reaction. While at the same time I'm accused of telling "nonsense" at Yucata when I say they're not willing to implement any rules changes from the community. No, of course they are willing to implement them, they just need official permission from the designer. But they won't ask him for the persmission nor allow anyone to communicate on the issue with the designer.
It's just silly, when you need really serious people to do such an uneasy thing and I'm afraid Brer Bear will have his hands tied despite his personal willingess. Sadly, what Sparhawk wrote on Yucata...
Quote:
But by now we have a lot of players which fall into either of these categories:
a) I play it again and again and again: I am a hero, I am the best player!
b) I am proving that the game is "broken": I am a hero and the publisher was too stupid to publish a balanced game.

...especially b), seems to say it all about his opinion on those who spend hours on working on their rules changes in hope that they could fix the game. I'd like to be wrong on this but I'm afraid we are wasting time and I'm sorry about it.

Apparently, if you are not enjoying the game fully in the current state and would like to change something in this game for whatever reason (but most likely the reason you would like to change something is that you want to prove the designer is stupid), you are the enemy of the current state of well doing Yucata and you don't have the right to ask questions and discuss in a civilised manner, your only right it is to basically shut up and watch how well they are doing.

Sparhawk, for your information, despite the criticism that I showed around here in the last months, I respect Martin Wallace more than any other boardgame designer and I consider AFAOS the best modern boardgame I have played, totally subjectively of course. Plenty of others here think very highly of this game too, so your judgement on them, us, is thourghly wrong. If you think we want to become Internet heroes or to prove the publisher ist bloed und dumm, then you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Oh, and last but not least: I lived in the Hansestadt Luebeck and consider it to be much more beautiful than Hamburg. Sorry
 
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Luish Moraes Coelho
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I just hope this thread´s idea returns to be the center of the debate.

Tim (out4blood) has been the best gamer playing AFAoS at Yucata.

He has some suggestions of variants (as Tom also have this great idea of the "En Passant").

It would be great to implement them at Yucata and be able to test them, as an unofficial variant, of course.

Of course that Yucata wishes Mr. Martin Wallace says "yes, go ahead folks!" to this idea.

Tom is suggesting that someone who have access to him would, pleeeeease!!, ask for his authorization. That is all.



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Tom
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luish wrote:
Of course that Yucata wishes Mr. Martin Wallace says "yes, go ahead folks!" to this idea.

Tom is suggesting that someone who have access to him would, pleeeeease!!, ask for his authorization. That is all.

This is what I thought and what I meant when I was starting this thread.

But it has been verified and my enthusiasm has very much cooled and I'm not optimistic anymore. Sparhawk seems to only want those who enjoy the game as it is and also play other games on the site, contributing to the general success of the well run site. People who come there and only play AFAOS and are now requesting some changes instead of enjoying all the games at Yucata.de are considered a kind of cancer on the website and would be gladly seen disappearing. Still, I'd like to be wrong about it, but for me it's already obvious that he doesn't want the contact with Martin Wallace on this question. Months ago there was a request from Tim, they said it needs to be consulted with MW and no contact with him has been made. When someone suggest a third-party involvement in such a contact, there's a reaction towards him like if he was a bee that just stinged them. The true intentions have been revealed, I guess. They'll keep up their good work and keep ignoring those who want to make "science" on their website like they have been for the last months, since Tim's request.
 
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luish wrote:
I just hope this thread´s idea returns to be the center of the debate.

Tim (out4blood) has been the best gamer playing AFAoS at Yucata.

He has some suggestions of variants (as Tom also have this great idea of the "En Passant").

It would be great to implement them at Yucata and be able to test them, as an unofficial variant, of course.

Of course that Yucata wishes Mr. Martin Wallace says "yes, go ahead folks!" to this idea.

Tom is suggesting that someone who have access to him would, pleeeeease!!, ask for his authorization. That is all.


Martin's quite approachable, so there's no need for an intermediate. But that cuts both ways. There's no need for an intermediate who knows Martin (as a lot if us on this side of the pond do) as he has a well-known email address and is even a user here. But equally there's no need for anyone who isn't a principal in the matter (Tim or from Yucata) to act as an intermediate. That leaves them to decide if and when they want to do it. (I've no first hand knowledge if they do.) I'm sure if either asked Martin they'd get a reply (yes, no, or conditions) and without anyone in between. It's only if they asked and got no reply that there's any need to drag in anyone else. But some delay should allowed for both due to Martin's current absence, and that anyone returning from something like that will have other pressing concerns. I'm sure that if (as I'd be very surprised) Martin was asked by, say, Tim, and got no reply then it any one of several people (I'd be one) who knows Martin could unclog things. But I'll say it agilain, that's highly hypothetical.
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solkan1 wrote:
luish wrote:
Of course that Yucata wishes Mr. Martin Wallace says "yes, go ahead folks!" to this idea.

Tom is suggesting that someone who have access to him would, pleeeeease!!, ask for his authorization. That is all.

This is what I thought and what I meant when I was starting this thread.

But it has been verified and my enthusiasm has very much cooled and I'm not optimistic anymore. Sparhawk seems to only want those who enjoy the game as it is and also play other games on the site, contributing to the general success of the well run site. People who come there and only play AFAOS and are now requesting some changes instead of enjoying all the games at Yucata.de are considered a kind of cancer on the website and would be gladly seen disappearing. Still, I'd like to be wrong about it, but for me it's already obvious that he doesn't want the contact with Martin Wallace on this question. Months ago there was a request from Tim, they said it needs to be consulted with MW and no contact with him has been made. When someone suggest a third-party involvement in such a contact, there's a reaction towards him like if he was a bee that just stinged them. The true intentions have been revealed, I guess. They'll keep up their good work and keep ignoring those who want to make "science" on their website like they have been for the last months, since Tim's request.


I posted my comment above before seeing this. I have no idea what anyone at Yucata does or doesn't want to do. But it reinforces my comment that it's up to them (and I said Tim, but the above suggests maybe not even Tim, but that's up to him, not me) to decide what to do.
 
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Dearlove wrote:

I posted my comment above before seeing this. I have no idea what anyone at Yucata does or doesn't want to do. But it reinforces my comment that it's up to them (and I said Tim, but the above suggests maybe not even Tim, but that's up to him, not me) to decide what to do.

You are right. I can fully accept it if they don't want to get involved in providing an online environment for testing unofficial variants, despite the obvious resources, as it's their entire right. But I'd just expect an honest answer instead of the likes of "it's not your business, let us continue our great work" and "it's nonsense that we are not willing to implement community rules", when clearly nothing in this question has happend for months and I was just trying to act as catalyst to make it happen - or to get the honest answer they're not interested in it and don't keep my (and not only mine, I guess) hope up anymore.
 
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luish wrote:
Tom is suggesting that someone who have access to him would, pleeeeease!!, ask for his authorization. That is all.


All I am saying is that if there is need to talk to Martin or to any other designer we'll do it ourselves.

In case that we should need help we will ask for help.

What is not welcome is providing "help" without first talking to us. This has caused confusion and damage before when some third party has contacted a publisher asking for things which we didn't need or promising things which we couldn't deliver. That is not funny.

So far, so simple.

I won't comment on the rest of Toms "impressions". Nearly everything he's saying about what "Yucata" thinks or does or means or intends to do is complete nonsense. But there are opinions for everyone.
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solkan1 wrote:

You are right. I can fully accept it if they don't want to get involved in providing an online environment for testing unofficial variants, despite the obvious resources, as it's their entire right. But I'd just expect an honest answer instead of the likes of "it's not your business, let us continue our great work" and "it's nonsense that we are not willing to implement community rules", when clearly nothing in this question has happend for months and I was just trying to act as catalyst to make it happen - or to get the honest answer they're not interested in it and don't keep my (and not only mine, I guess) hope up anymore.


Build your own website? Then you can decide how to run things...
 
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Sparhawk wrote:
All I am saying is that if there is need to talk to Martin or to any other designer we'll do it ourselves.

Brer Bear already said it needs to be consulted with Martin Wallace first, so there's certainly the "need". The still unanswered question is if you are willing to do it or not. But all you do is avoiding the answer or making rude remarks towards me, while I'm sure the community would like to know the honest answer if you're planning on contacting Martin Wallace or not.

But I should probably expect another rude remark towards me which will allow you to avoid the answer.

Quote:
What is not welcome is providing "help" without first talking to us. This has caused confusion and damage before when some third party has contacted a publisher asking for things which we didn't need or promising things which we couldn't deliver. That is not funny.

Again, Martin Wallace is not demanding anything in the area of unofficial variant from you, so what you fear is a non-issue and a simple "go ahead if you like" would not oblige you to do anything, but only would make your possibilities broader in ths regard. At least officially, because Brer Bear also said it's not prohibited for him to implement some unofficial rules even now. He just feels it would be right to have the official consent, which is perfectly understandable.



Quote:
I won't comment on the rest of Toms "impressions". Nearly everything he's saying about what "Yucata" thinks or does or means or intends to do is complete nonsense. But there are opinions for everyone.

I think anyone can judge what you are writing here and in the thread on Yucata on his own. Your remarks made towards people who dedicate their time in hope to fix the game and analyse the Halifax Hammer through lots of playing (surely to become heroes proving the designers stupidity!) are particularly impressive. You've proven in the thread on Yucata and also this thread that you lack the basic culture behind you I expect from my interlocutors, so I'll try to avoid getting into further dialogue with you and I'll also ask you to avoid making such remarks towards me, so I will not be obliged to answer in order to clear anything.

I only hope the community somehow benefits from the resources at your disposal, which can provide a platform to test various rulesets. Personally, I give up and don't keep any hope because I've understood enough already.
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Windopaene wrote:
Build your own website? Then you can decide how to run things...

I think I was clear when I said it's their entire right to do what they want. All I expected was a civilised discussion on the forum with Sparhawk which unfortunately he didn't give me the right to.
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I discovered Yucata has a guest option, so have read the pointed to thread, and the one it points to. (Thanks, registering just to read a couple of threads is something I prefer not to have to do, I'll save registering for when I need it.) And for what it's worth (not much) I'll throw my support in this spat to the Yucata guys (Sparhawk here). I'm always going to have a bias in favour of the people who do the work, especially if not paid, and as I said when I hadn't read those threads, better to leave such things to those people. But this one's not just that bias, it's more than that and I think the right in the argument is clear. (Note that I'm not viewing Tim Seitz as a side in the argument, nor anything as being objectionable from him, just to be clear.)
 
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Christopher,

Note that I wrote there on Yucata in a reply to Brer Bear:

"I guess you would like someone from the BGG community to contact Martin Wallace instead?"

And he didn't in his later reply say "NO" there, nor did Sparhawk, so I created this thread in a hopeful and helpful manner, having in mind the possibility of collaboration between the BGG community and Yucata. Sparhawk didn't anwer there but was waiting until I created this thread to immediately criticise me for this suggestion. While a short "no" would prevent me from creating the thread here.
I wasn't prepared for it and only later I realized that he is against any collaboration. It was never my intention to make a spat, though I probably was too idealistic when I assumed that everyone wants to happily collaborte for the greater good.

As I keep your opinions in high regard, I'd want to apologize to everyone who felt some of my arguments or remarks were unnecessary. I was just saddened that something which I thought could be a great opportunity to fix AFAOS is not considered the same way by the Yucata folks, who don't share my enthusiasm to say the least, though which they have every right not to.
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