Mr. Morphine
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I'll bite. And know I will regret it. Some things piss me off so much, I find it hard to not respond. Yes, I am an easy victim for trolls. So:

Discuss anything related to discrimination here: positive discrimination, racism, sexism, ageism, ...
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
jageroxorz wrote:
beastofburden wrote:
StatSig wrote:
beastofburden wrote:
Sigafoos wrote:
Yeah, how dare we treat women like people...


are you not reading or not comprehending?


It's possible he both read and comprehended but disagrees with your feeling that what is happening is unfair or something to be battled with sexist humor. I know that's true for me.


i wont derail this thread so yeah, i hate women


I have an example:

In high school, I wanted to play badminton. I was not allowed, because there were only female teams, and males were not allowed to play.

However, females are permitted to play on all-male teams when there is no female team due to law. I could have sued the school to let me play, but it would have been a huge hassle.

I am a victim of sexual discrimination.


Kindly elaborate on this post. I would think that if you honestly suffered from discrimination, like the male waterballet dancer who could not go to the olympics, you would actually EMPATHIZE with groups who have suffered and often still suffer from discrimination.

Yet I get the feeling that you are using your own experience to demean and TRIVIALISE sexism. Such a reaction, I do not understand and find extremely offensive. Yet I often see it around me, from people I consider smart and educated ( and young!). I mean, it's not because I skipped dinner once, that I get to trivialise people that are starving.

I would appreciate it if you could explain why you react the way you do, because I seem to have a lack of empathy for people with a lack of empathy.

Thank you.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
linguistfromhell wrote:
Amusingly, joining the military forced me to expand my horizons. Nowadays, I am only really openly biased against stupid people.


Amen to that.

However, I'm much more openly against unprofessional people who don't take their job seriously, or who constantly get themselves in trouble because they like being drunk and do stupid things and end up throwing away a good career.

I don't like those people.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Athletics is a difficult area for gender discrimination. Nature has provided that males are simply more athletic than females, particularly in areas of raw strength. 95% of sports are affected by this difference.

I find it difficult to claim discrimination by men against woman-only sports due to this issue. It is unfortunate, but the best male in almost every sport is quite significantly better than the best female, and thus there is no equitable way to address males competing in traditionally female-only sports almost exclusively against females.

I would suggest the appropriate remedy would be to create interest in a male league for that sport. In my area Volleyball, Softball (and Baseball is male-only), and Badminton were the only ones I can think of which are female-only at the secondary education level. It's a long and difficult process to start a league, which may end up failing, but it's simply not feasible to put a male on a female team. That is simply the reality of nature.

I can understand the desire to call this discrimination, but in reality it is simply the characteristic of our species.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Shushnik wrote:
Athletics is a difficult area for gender discrimination. Nature has provided that males are simply more athletic than females, particularly in areas of raw strength. 95% of sports are affected by this difference.

I find it difficult to claim discrimination by men against woman-only sports due to this issue. It is unfortunate, but the best male in almost every sport is quite significantly better than the best female, and thus there is no equitable way to address males competing in traditionally female-only sports almost exclusively against females.

I would suggest the appropriate remedy would be to create interest in a male league for that sport. In my area Volleyball, Softball (and Baseball is male-only), and Badminton were the only ones I can think of which are female-only at the secondary education level. It's a long and difficult process to start a league, which may end up failing, but it's simply not feasible to put a male on a female team. That is simply the reality of nature.

I can understand the desire to call this discrimination, but in reality it is simply the characteristic of our species.

I actually think it's more of an economic issue than an issue of discrimination. From my understanding, female-only sports are designated to balance the male-only (or male-dominated-to-the-point-where-its-basically-the-same-thing) sports so that men/women have an equal (more-or-less) opportunity to participate in athletics in school (although, not guaranteed to have equal access to all athletics). The number of sports available is largely tied to the number of sports a school is able to offer based on financial resources. If schools had unlimited financial resources, they could conceivably be able to offer and support whatever athletics the students were interested in (although, potentially still with an equal-access focus based on numbers).
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
linguistfromhell wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Athletics is a difficult area for gender discrimination. Nature has provided that males are simply more athletic than females, particularly in areas of raw strength. 95% of sports are affected by this difference.

I find it difficult to claim discrimination by men against woman-only sports due to this issue. It is unfortunate, but the best male in almost every sport is quite significantly better than the best female, and thus there is no equitable way to address males competing in traditionally female-only sports almost exclusively against females.

I would suggest the appropriate remedy would be to create interest in a male league for that sport. In my area Volleyball, Softball (and Baseball is male-only), and Badminton were the only ones I can think of which are female-only at the secondary education level. It's a long and difficult process to start a league, which may end up failing, but it's simply not feasible to put a male on a female team. That is simply the reality of nature.

I can understand the desire to call this discrimination, but in reality it is simply the characteristic of our species.


A counter to this argument:
If a school system does not provide the same opportunity to all people, it IS discrimination. The way most places will even the score, however, is to have the same number of gender-only teams for both sides. Men have wrestling, women have volleyball. It's still vaguely discriminating. What if I'm a tall thin male? I would suck at wrestling and be great at volleyball.

I can also see how the military can be considered discriminating. The Army, for example, does not allow women into certain roles that are considered directly related to combat. Obviously, in this day and age, we can see how the physical composition of a person is less relevant than other factors, as males and females have both been directly involved in combat over the last ten years on our most recent "War on a Noun". So, the military is catching up and as stated in recent press releases, they're looking at putting females in infantry positions and eventually in some of the more high-speed duties, like ranger school. We'll have to wait and see how it pans out.


This is a bit trickier, IMO. Cause if you take the AVERAGE woman they will not do as well as the AVERAGE man would in combat. But there are definitely women out there who can do as well as most men. (I would not be one of those women). Because of this type of thing.. I think it should be the woman's choice if she wants to be in that type of situation. Or better yet... make a set of physical ability requirements to do such an activity, but DON'T make them easier for a woman to meet. Make them the same. If the woman can match the level then they should be allowed no problem.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
davidenkinderen wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
beastofburden wrote:
StatSig wrote:
beastofburden wrote:
Sigafoos wrote:
Yeah, how dare we treat women like people...


are you not reading or not comprehending?


It's possible he both read and comprehended but disagrees with your feeling that what is happening is unfair or something to be battled with sexist humor. I know that's true for me.


i wont derail this thread so yeah, i hate women


I have an example:

In high school, I wanted to play badminton. I was not allowed, because there were only female teams, and males were not allowed to play.

However, females are permitted to play on all-male teams when there is no female team due to law. I could have sued the school to let me play, but it would have been a huge hassle.

I am a victim of sexual discrimination.


Kindly elaborate on this post. I would think that if you honestly suffered from discrimination, like the male waterballet dancer who could not go to the olympics, you would actually EMPATHIZE with groups who have suffered and often still suffer from discrimination.

Yet I get the feeling that you are using your own experience to demean and TRIVIALISE sexism. Such a reaction, I do not understand and find extremely offensive. Yet I often see it around me, from people I consider smart and educated ( and young!). I mean, it's not because I skipped dinner once, that I get to trivialise people that are starving.

I would appreciate it if you could explain why you react the way you do, because I seem to have a lack of empathy for people with a lack of empathy.

Thank you.



You are accusing me here of demeaning and trivializing sexism, by simply posting a story of how I was discriminated against? Or was it the mere fact I objected to Sigafoos saying that beastofburden hated women for his simple statement against feminism?

beastofburden wrote:
Feminism...

I am all for "the best person gets the job, regardless of color, religion and gender".

In sweden its gone way to far, for instance, women have their own sport events where only women can compete, there was something called "the bull run" which was only for men, but due to feminism its now mixed...

I dont care if there is 100% women in a boardroom, if they where the most suitable people to get there.

In light of this I try to bring some order into the madness, often by jokes... like for instance "you get a daughter, you make a son". The joke is not really funny but the look on peoples faces makes me sleep well at night.


This was the original post, which I would say hardly proves that beastofburden doesn't want to treat women like "people". I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to hold that it's okay for male-only and female-only sporting events. However, like in the case of schools currently, if you allow women on male-only teams you should also allow men on woman-only teams. Otherwise, it's not equality.

Unless, of course, you're simply objected to beastofburden's claimed like of sexist jokes. I personally don't believe that someone's like of sexist jokes makes them a sexist; just like you can enjoy racist jokes without being a racist, or any number of jokes. They're jokes. I mean, if you start restricting what people can joke about, pretty soon there won't be any jokes at all.

Of course, it's hard when a movement like "feminism" has no concrete ideology or party platform, thus each person has a different opinion of what feminism means to them.

One feminist I met, upon hearing all of my views, actually said that I am a feminist, a title which I believe a large majority of Americans would hold. However, I don't believe the wider feminist movement does itself any favors when it advances lies like the "gender gap in earnings" of 77%.

For example, on the topic of military service, I am all for allowing women on the front lines. However, for equality in military service you need to have a single physical fitness standard that any member of the military would have to meet, which we currently do not have. Additionally, you would have to end male-only selective service registration.

I'm actually interested in why you are accusing me of demeaning or trivializing sexism, simply by posting a story where I was discriminated against according to my sex? Simply because I am a male, any discrimination I face automatically trivializes sexism? I find it more interesting that you aren't attacking the person who attacked beastofburden and accused him of hating women when he clearly supports equality?
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Melsana wrote:
linguistfromhell wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Athletics is a difficult area for gender discrimination. Nature has provided that males are simply more athletic than females, particularly in areas of raw strength. 95% of sports are affected by this difference.

I find it difficult to claim discrimination by men against woman-only sports due to this issue. It is unfortunate, but the best male in almost every sport is quite significantly better than the best female, and thus there is no equitable way to address males competing in traditionally female-only sports almost exclusively against females.

I would suggest the appropriate remedy would be to create interest in a male league for that sport. In my area Volleyball, Softball (and Baseball is male-only), and Badminton were the only ones I can think of which are female-only at the secondary education level. It's a long and difficult process to start a league, which may end up failing, but it's simply not feasible to put a male on a female team. That is simply the reality of nature.

I can understand the desire to call this discrimination, but in reality it is simply the characteristic of our species.


A counter to this argument:
If a school system does not provide the same opportunity to all people, it IS discrimination. The way most places will even the score, however, is to have the same number of gender-only teams for both sides. Men have wrestling, women have volleyball. It's still vaguely discriminating. What if I'm a tall thin male? I would suck at wrestling and be great at volleyball.

I can also see how the military can be considered discriminating. The Army, for example, does not allow women into certain roles that are considered directly related to combat. Obviously, in this day and age, we can see how the physical composition of a person is less relevant than other factors, as males and females have both been directly involved in combat over the last ten years on our most recent "War on a Noun". So, the military is catching up and as stated in recent press releases, they're looking at putting females in infantry positions and eventually in some of the more high-speed duties, like ranger school. We'll have to wait and see how it pans out.


This is a bit trickier, IMO. Cause if you take the AVERAGE woman they will not do as well as the AVERAGE man would in combat. But there are definitely women out there who can do as well as most men. (I would not be one of those women). Because of this type of thing.. I think it should be the woman's choice if she wants to be in that type of situation. Or better yet... make a set of physical ability requirements to do such an activity, but DON'T make them easier for a woman to meet. Make them the same. If the woman can match the level then they should be allowed no problem.


But who's gonna drive the tanks?

/poortaste
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?


*hands Jage some binoculars*

You see that dot over there? That's the topic.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Shushnik wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?


*hands Jage some binoculars*

You see that dot over there? That's the topic.


This is clearly on-topic with discrimination, at least in my view.

There is often discrimination in post-birth child custody and payment when the parents are not married in America. There is clear discrimination, which courts almost always awarding custody to the mother unless the father can clearly prove she is negligent or unfit to be a mother.

In America, the Supreme Court upheld a federal law that makes it easier for mothers than fathers to transmit citizenship to their out-of-wedlock children in Flores-Villar v. United States.

There was an anonymous 4-4 split, with Kagan recusing herself, which meant the lower court's ruling was affirmed and gender discrimination in the US was confirmed by the Supreme Court.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?
The thing is that choices like this need to be made when both parties are on equal footing and Shen one person is pregnant and one is not the footing is no longer equal. If you don't want a child the time to decide that is before sex happens. Erin got a vasectomy when he was28 so he wouldn't face this dilemma. Another friend always wore a condom, even after living with his girlfriend and knowing she was on the pill. He didn't take any chances. Another friend of mine wZited to haveneed until he was with his wife because he wNted kids but only in marriAge.

In the end there are many things to do to keep from ending up in this situation and if you choose to engage in sex you accept the risks.

Also, if a man was able to walk awAy from a pregnancy just by saying they didn't want a child that now shifts 100% of the contraceptionburden to the woman. No man would ever need to worry about preventing pregnancy again. Right now the contraception burden is equal so that's where any hav kids don't have kids decisions should be made.

Now I will return this to a discrimination conversTion. Sorry for following the sidetrack but I couldn't let that go.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
miraria wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?
The thing is that choices like this need to be made when both parties are on equal footing and Shen one person is pregnant and one is not the footing is no longer equal. If you don't want a child the time to decide that is before sex happens. Erin got a vasectomy when he was28 so he wouldn't face this dilemma. Another friend always wore a condom, even after living with his girlfriend and knowing she was on the pill. He didn't take any chances. Another friend of mine wZited to haveneed until he was with his wife because he wNted kids but only in marriAge.

In the end there are many things to do to keep from ending up in this situation and if you choose to engage in sex you accept the risks.

Also, if a man was able to walk awAy from a pregnancy just by saying they didn't want a child that now shifts 100% of the contraceptionburden to the woman. No man would ever need to worry about preventing pregnancy again. Right now the contraception burden is equal so that's where any hav kids don't have kids decisions should be made.

Now I will return this to a discrimination conversTion. Sorry for following the sidetrack but I couldn't let that go.

As the risk of side-tracking this, but in attempting to tie it back into the discrimination point Jage was trying to make (I think):

What if both parties decided they wanted children, at the time of conception, but many months later, once already pregnant, the woman decides she no longer wants the child (but the man/father) still does?

If the man walks away prior to birth (if woman wants child, but man does not), at this point, then the child is born and the man is liable for child support (I believe, though the actual law might be more complicated by various circumstances). However, if the woman "walks away" prior to birth, that tends to result in an abortion (although, I guess it's conceivable that arrangements could be made for the child to still be born with all parental rights/obligations transferred solely to the father, though I suspect that's more complicated and less common).

I suspect, however, that there is far more than simple discrimination involved in this case.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
miraria wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?
The thing is that choices like this need to be made when both parties are on equal footing and Shen one person is pregnant and one is not the footing is no longer equal. If you don't want a child the time to decide that is before sex happens. Erin got a vasectomy when he was28 so he wouldn't face this dilemma. Another friend always wore a condom, even after living with his girlfriend and knowing she was on the pill. He didn't take any chances. Another friend of mine wZited to haveneed until he was with his wife because he wNted kids but only in marriAge.

In the end there are many things to do to keep from ending up in this situation and if you choose to engage in sex you accept the risks.

Also, if a man was able to walk awAy from a pregnancy just by saying they didn't want a child that now shifts 100% of the contraceptionburden to the woman. No man would ever need to worry about preventing pregnancy again. Right now the contraception burden is equal so that's where any hav kids don't have kids decisions should be made.

Now I will return this to a discrimination conversTion. Sorry for following the sidetrack but I couldn't let that go.

Mira, I think your keyboard is drunk..
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Valkerie32 wrote:

Mira, I think your keyboard is drunk..
I'm typing on my iPod. It likes weird auto corrects and capital letters
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Jager, apparently I misunderstood your post (and the follow-up posts you made in the Pet Peeves thread). I read it as trivialising sexism and the battle of women's rights, since you seemed to mock the "girls who sued their schools". Personally, I see those people in history that stood up against discrimination as heroes/heroines. If everyone remains silent and polite, nothing will change. So I may be a little over-sensitive when those people are mocked.

Thank you for explaining.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
jageroxorz wrote:
One difficult topic, especially in regards to discrimination, is childcare.

Take, for example, two people. One pregnant.

One wants to keep the child. The other wants an abortion.

Should the parent who wants an abortion to be performed be forced to pay child support for the child if the child is eventually delivered?


Imo, yes (generally speaking, there may always be exceptional cases). An abortion is a measure of last resort, not a method of anti-conception. It's a decision that should never be taken lightly, and if one of the parties opposes, I fully understand. The parent who made the child and wants an abortion still made the child in the first place (I am only talking about consensual sex here). So, to me, it only seems normal that they would also take their responsability.
 
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
jageroxorz wrote:
This is clearly on-topic with discrimination, at least in my view.

There is often discrimination in post-birth child custody and payment when the parents are not married in America. There is clear discrimination, which courts almost always awarding custody to the mother unless the father can clearly prove she is negligent or unfit to be a mother.

In America, the Supreme Court upheld a federal law that makes it easier for mothers than fathers to transmit citizenship to their out-of-wedlock children in Flores-Villar v. United States.

There was an anonymous 4-4 split, with Kagan recusing herself, which meant the lower court's ruling was affirmed and gender discrimination in the US was confirmed by the Supreme Court.


This is true. There is lots of discrimination when it comes to child custody. Laws are changing though, and fathers are getting custody more often than before. At least here in Belgium, the law explicitly states that joint custody should always be preferred over single custody by the mother. Nevertheless, it is a battle that is still being fought all over the world, and I know many fathers/children that have suffered from this type of discrimination.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
davidenkinderen wrote:

This is true. There is lots of discrimination when it comes to child custody. Laws are changing though, and fathers are getting custody more often than before. At least here in Belgium, the law explicitly states that joint custody should always be preferred over single custody by the mother. Nevertheless, it is a battle that is still being fought all over the world, and I know many fathers/children that have suffered from this type of discrimination.

I know this is reverse stereotyping or something, but I feel like if there were fewer guys with the whole "sow and go" mentality this wouldn't be an issue. I know the defense is "Dude, that's my genetically hardwired programming at work, propagating the species demands I spread my seed" blah blah blah so, whatevs. Sometimes I wish we were more like penguins. If it takes a village to raise a child we need better villages.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Melsana wrote:
This is a bit trickier, IMO. Cause if you take the AVERAGE woman they will not do as well as the AVERAGE man would in combat. But there are definitely women out there who can do as well as most men. (I would not be one of those women). Because of this type of thing.. I think it should be the woman's choice if she wants to be in that type of situation. Or better yet... make a set of physical ability requirements to do such an activity, but DON'T make them easier for a woman to meet. Make them the same. If the woman can match the level then they should be allowed no problem.

As a veteran, I completely agree with this ideal.
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I'll throw another one out there: weight discrimination. As someone who is overweight, I have noticed how completely acceptable it is (at least in the US) for people to make disparaging comments about, and discriminate against overweight individuals. Many times, this behavior is observed from people who would otherwise be very accepting of other potential discrimination vectors, or at a minimum quietly tolerant of them.
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Valkerie32 wrote:
davidenkinderen wrote:

This is true. There is lots of discrimination when it comes to child custody. Laws are changing though, and fathers are getting custody more often than before. At least here in Belgium, the law explicitly states that joint custody should always be preferred over single custody by the mother. Nevertheless, it is a battle that is still being fought all over the world, and I know many fathers/children that have suffered from this type of discrimination.

I know this is reverse stereotyping or something, but I feel like if there were fewer guys with the whole "sow and go" mentality this wouldn't be an issue. I know the defense is "Dude, that's my genetically hardwired programming at work, propagating the species demands I spread my seed" blah blah blah so, whatevs. Sometimes I wish we were more like penguins. If it takes a village to raise a child we need better villages.


Yes and Yes. The system is hugely slanted against men - and there's a pretty valid societal reason why it is. It punishes some of the population unjustly, and there's not a solid common sense answer to figure out what to do about it, in my opinion. The percentages are higher that a guy will walk out on the family and go his own way, leaving behind significant financial burden and responsibility behind... in addition, there's the lack of having to carry the child to term, medical bills, health risk involved with conception and delivery of a child... however, a guy whose wife walks out on him can take the children against his will AND he has to pay child support regardless of her employment status/etc... it's ugly and messy.
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Richard Hefferan
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
Snaak wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
I'll throw another one out there: weight discrimination. As someone who is overweight, I have noticed how completely acceptable it is (at least in the US) for people to make disparaging comments about, and discriminate against overweight individuals. Many times, this behavior is observed from people who would otherwise be very accepting of other potential discrimination vectors, or at a minimum quietly tolerant of them.


I'm not sure about discrimination against overweight people (could you name some examples?), but yes, that type of comment seems to be fully accepted amongst those who aren't overweight. Which is weird imo. I think it stems from the fact that most of us were raised with the idea that it is smart to try and keep healthy and being overweight can be an indication that someone didn't adhere to that ideal. It then becomes an example of the earlier referred to 'stupid people' (not people with a low IQ but those that make unsmart decision while being capable of smart ones).

But being overweight is not hurtful to others, unless you want to count the potential extra cost of state healthcare, in which case I would consider all people that drive cars as potentially hurtful too, etc.

Of course, some people are overweight due to factors they can or could not control, like an illness.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2008-05-20-ov...

http://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/19486/weight-discrimi...

Weight discrimination is documented and studied. Overweight people are significantly less likely to be paid as much as non-overweight people, and are significantly less likely to be promoted given the same skill set, ability, and experience.
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Barry
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Re: (RSP) Discrimination
I think the perception is that it is "ok" to discriminate against people based on weight, which is supposedly something that an individual has control over.

This is opposed to innate personal traits such as gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, what have you.

Incidentally, when people claim that sexual orientation is a choice are trying to make it sound like it's ok to discriminate based on choice.
 
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