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Subject: Map Confusion??? rss

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Martin Taylor
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Looks like Panzer is going to use 2 different styles of maps, WHY? A big map in the original game then the smaller maps in the expansions. Can the 2 different styles be butted together? The scenarios listed on GMT's web page for Panzer shows maps 1, 3, 4 for 3 of the scenarios and another scenario list 1, 3, 4, 6 (or maybe 9). Where are these boards going to come from if their is only the big map included in the original game? I want to buy this game but the map confusion if holding me back.
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John Di Ponio
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Now you have me wondering!
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Nigel Wright
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It is bonkers. Apparently GMT felt geomorphic maps were 'confusing' so put a single regular map in the base game, with the expansions getting the geomorphic boards. It makes you wonder just how dumb GMT think their customers are.
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しんぶん赤旗
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My understanding is that the example scenarios on the gmt panzer page are actually from one of the expansions.

My confusion about the map is how did they let them get through the quality control process looking so bloody ugly. GMT have been doing great maps and panzer is a really significant game in wargaming history so why does it get such crap treatment on the map front. I hope I am wrong and the actual maps look a bit better (or some 3rd party - mapology? make replacement maps).
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Martin Taylor
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You could almost use ASLs maps, some of them like RB have 1" hexes.
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Thomas Beach

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I too confess some concern regarding the maps system and preview.

I don't think GMT is dumbing-down the map in Panzer. But I have to agree that the single map preview for Panzer is downright ugly. And I am very disappointed in GMT's effort in this regard. I am relieved however, to see that GMT muted the counter art. They previously had bright bars bordering the counters which made them pop out against any map background. To be honest, I think I still prefer the rather simple art of the original Yaquinto vehicles. That said, I confess I think GMT made a good choice regarding the new art for leg units with ground level profiles instead of the silly overhead art.

I also disagree with the notion, as described in the "What's in the box?" link, that the self-scenario generation capabilities included in the game as a possible reason for not publishing modules in the future. I think this tactical level game, like others, can easily be expanded into historical scenario packs. And if they are packaged and priced like those of Combat Commander, I feel they would do well.

While I appreciated Jim's comments regarding game evolution, marketability and streamlining (i.e. simplifying while improving), I confess that I am preparing myself for a disappointment with this new series of games as compared to the original Yaquinto titles. I say that because what I liked most about the originals were the data cards and written moves. Okay... I realize just about everyone else abhores the idea of writing movement orders for game counters in a boardgame. And I suspect that GMT would never agree to publish these gmaes if Jim had held fast to it. Who knows? Perhaps I'll find that the chit order system will be a perfect compromise.

But the simplification of the data cards as well as the elimination of the target angle wheel strikes me as an unnecessary simplification. After all, most gamers who choose to engage in what is clearly a detailed game like Panzer would not, in my opinion, be put off by such game-slowing mechanics. For me, this level of detail is what made the original games so enticing. And the trade-off between time and detail was well within the range of acceptability. And to be frank, I get tired of nearly every game being strained through the 'how fast does it play' filter. Again, perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised.

I think there is no doubt that the elimination of written orders as well as the target angle wheel are obvious concesssions to the demands of both the gaming trends of the day as well as the adherence to them by GMT, a company who certainly knows better than I what sells and what doesn't. And in fairness, these changes may have been Jim's preference all along. And while it was a difficult decision to make, given my affection for the original titles, I have decided to take the plunge and have ordered all three games from GMT.

I hope I end up playing and not selling them. Either way, the dramatic departure from Jim's original design means I won't be getting rid of the Yaquinto series any time soon.

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Jim Day
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Thomas Beach wrote:
I also disagree with the notion, as described in the "What's in the box?" link, that the self-scenario generation capabilities included in the game as a possible reason for not publishing modules in the future. I think this tactical level game, like others, can easily be expanded into historical scenario packs. And if they are packaged and priced like those of Combat Commander, I feel they would do well.


I'm confused. Were does it state in the "What's in the box?" link that self-scenario design is a reason for not publishing additional modules? It just states that you have all the tools necessary to design you own. I would think that's a good thing.
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Thomas Beach

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I expected you might have a problem with that before I got around to modifying that remark. Rather, I meant to say that that the implication was that there might not be any consideration of add-on modules. My comment was meant to be more of a springboard to advocating for such modules. But it didn't come out that way. You're correct, Jim. It doesn't say any such thing.
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Jim Day
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Thomas Beach wrote:
I expected you might have a problem with that before I got around to modifying that remark. Rather, I meant to say that that the implication was that there might not be any consideration of add-on modules. My comment was meant to be more of a springboard to advocating for such modules. But it didn't come out that way. You're correct, Jim. It doesn't say any such thing.


Thanks for posting the clarification. Yes, additional modules are on tap for the future. By providing the scenario design tools that enables players to design scenarios for not only their own enjoyment but also for possible inclusion in scenario booklets.
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johnny5 Is Alive
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mgtaylor wrote:
You could almost use ASLs maps, some of them like RB have 1" hexes.


Actually, you can.. the original miniatures cards for his system was designed for 50 meters and comparing these data cards to the mini system it seems you need to double the to ranges and the speed..
 
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