Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Making Accusations with Gaius Baltar rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Danno Might
Canada
flag msg tools
I love playing Baltar. I like his abilities and I really like the fact that people are always suspicious of you as Baltar, no matter what. It makes it a lot of fun.

I go back and forth on whether or not I like his OPG. Sometimes I feel like I might be ruining the fun for myself, by peeking at other people's cards. But sometimes that kind of lopsided knowledge that I can't prove makes for very exciting games full of paranoia.

I've often wondered whether I could pull off a false accusation as Baltar, ie. Baltar is a cylon, looks at someone's cards who turns out to be human, then tells everyone that the human is a cylon. I don't know if I could lie convincingly enough to overcome the genuine sincerity in the other person's denials.

Has anyone ever pulled that off? Has anyone ever played as Cylon Baltar, and thrown the other cylon under the bus to firmly cement themselves as human?

What are some of your best Baltar moments?

I couldn't decide if this should be posted in strategy or just general.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wood
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Even better is when Baltar is sincere enough in the accusation to use the Admiral's Quarters to try to throw the other Cylon in the brig...and sabotages his own skill check.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
(B) = base game
(P) = Pegasus game
(X) = Exodus game

Dannomight wrote:
I love playing Baltar. I like his abilities and I really like the fact that people are always suspicious of you as Baltar, no matter what. It makes it a lot of fun.

I go back and forth on whether or not I like his OPG. Sometimes I feel like I might be ruining the fun for myself, by peeking at other people's cards. But sometimes that kind of lopsided knowledge that I can't prove makes for very exciting games full of paranoia.
Eh... people have to take your word for it, which isn't always easy. If anything, I do find a slight imbalance how Boomer is still more shafted than Baltar. Perhaps changing his OPG to state he also needs to discard 1 or more skill cards to use it would've been more "on the level". Balt having 2 loyalty from the get-go is actually much worse than getting an extra sleeper phase, but still not enough IMO.

Dannomight wrote:
I've often wondered whether I could pull off a false accusation as Baltar, ie. Baltar is a cylon, looks at someone's cards who turns out to be human, then tells everyone that the human is a cylon. I don't know if I could lie convincingly enough to overcome the genuine sincerity in the other person's denials.
Unless there's more clear evidence, I just suspect Baltar and the OPG-ed char. Sometimes, it's better to NOT risk going after a fellow human.

Dannomight wrote:
Has anyone ever pulled that off? Has anyone ever played as Cylon Baltar, and thrown the other cylon under the bus to firmly cement themselves as human?
(B) that happened when my cylon ally (NOT as Baltar) outed after looking at my loy. card via crisis effect. Then, I thought he was human. It turned out he played the same gambit you just brought up, but it ended up backfiring. He revealed, the cylons ended up losing, but the cylons did OK considering it was a 1st game for many and we bumped up each resource +1, so it was harder for us. From my experience, it could work, but since most people it'd be hard to execute properly, it's too much for 1 cylon to pick up the slack of the other cylon who just got Brigged.

===
For either case above, it's occurred when I played 3p games with Baltar in the game as well. I don't trust Baltar since he could be lying or truthful about what he sees, so I just let him and p3 duke it out while I use my turns to make sure humanity progresses.

Dannomight wrote:
What are some of your best Baltar moments?
The only one I have is rather generic since I've used Baltar once every 50 games or so... perhaps 5 times total... I can count all the times I've played as Baltar with one hand (decimal, NOT binary mind you). I don't really have any personally since it was moreso due to having the presidency than Baltar himself. Others OTOH...

--(P) A Baltar player used his OPG to out a cylon. We brigged that player. Later on, he got executed and it turns out, we got duped. We just straight up went with it on blind faith. The target player denied it, but it did become futile to try to convince us

--(P) Baltar uses his OPG. He asks that we all Brig that character. it's NOT 100% garaunteed, but he's asking us to take a leap of faith. It's amusing since he acted a bit hysterical, whereas the player who got OPG-ed was the one who was calm. A completely "role reversal" turned the tables and no action was done vs. that cylon. I'm glad since I was the 2nd cylon in that game and we got to better do damage together cool

--(B)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9041902#9041902

Dannomight wrote:
I couldn't decide if this should be posted in strategy or just general.
I think Strategy fits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In games with just one Cylon, Baltar's OPG will clear one player completely (assuming Human-Baltar is honest) - either he accuses the player he scans, in which case one of them is the Cylon, or he clears him, in which case the scanned player must be clean...

The problem for Baltar is always getting people to trust him...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith B
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
In my opinion it is impossible to give a general answer to this conundrum. If your accusation can be backed up by other circumsatnces the appraoch is much more likely to succeed.

For example
The person in question has made a number of debatable decisions and is already distrusted
They hold a key role (probably admiral) and tyou can reasonably make the argument that they should be stripped of the title "just in case" (for best effect your fellow cylon will be next in line for the succession and you'll have at least one supporter).

A good undercover Cylon is a stalwart of the general concensus of opinion, provided that such opinion promotes a degree of sub-optimal (form a human perspective) play. They key to this is to play the players not the board.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Shaffstall
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Best Baltar moment: as President Cylon in a 3-player game, getting an XO by one of the other players. Two Arrest Orders, and President Cylon had several rounds to play havoc with the fleet before the humans could get themselves out of the brig. They never did recover.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jshaffstall wrote:
Best Baltar moment: as President Cylon in a 3-player game, getting an XO by one of the other players. Two Arrest Orders, and President Cylon had several rounds to play havoc with the fleet before the humans could get themselves out of the brig. They never did recover.


Yeah, that's Y in 3p games, if you don't know where Baltar stands, just let him and the other player duke it out while you do your own thing. After stuff like this happens, people get wise to XO-ing people, esp. the president.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not a good enough liar to pull off calling a Human a Cylon as Baltar. Usually I have a pretty good sense on who the other Cylon is if I'm one, so I have been known to use it on that person and declare him Human. Of course the possibility arises of "What if they're both Cylons?" but I can usually buy my teammate some trust, at least.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hurd
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I know I'm in the minority in this view, because I'm in the minority in my own play group. But I'll state it anyway: never give away information as Baltar.

As previous posters have said, using your ability doesn't confirm that a player is what you says he is. It just makes the game about you vs your target. Saying something just draws more suspicion to you.

When you say nothing, you neither decrease nor increase the suspicion of any other player in the game. The other players can not infer the status of the target, but they also can not infer your status. Those other players may say "well, you're clearly not on our team, because you didn't tell us anything." To which I typically respond "That's true, because I don't know what team you're on. I only know what team I am on, and what team he/she is on."

It's also important to note that "other players" specifically included the target of the power. You look at the target's card and he/she gets nothing in return.
-If you find a cylon, they can't attempt to bluff the other players by counter-accusing you of being a cylon. They have to keep playing as if you could be their partner. Meaning that you won't be the target if they decide to, say, reveal-brig someone.
-If you find your cylon partner, you lose the opportunity to signal your partner, but instead gain general confusion. Even if one of you is later outed as a cylon, it does not implicate the other.

The basic argument I'm making is that giving away free information is a bad strategy. Keeping information for yourself gives you greater control.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hybridfive wrote:
I know I'm in the minority in this view, because I'm in the minority in my own play group. But I'll state it anyway: never give away information as Baltar.
[...]
The basic argument I'm making is that giving away free information is a bad strategy. Keeping information for yourself gives you greater control.


If you're human, then having more control than any other player doesn't help you win when it comes at the expense of reducing Team Human's overall control of the game - sure, someone else will get brigged on the way there, but you still end up losing in the end.

In fact, if you don't care about winning, you can get a lot of control as a human by deliberately sabotaging Galactica - the actual Cylons will think you're their teammate, the other humans won't have a clue that you're on their side, and, if you haven't singlehandedly determined the outcome of the game, you've definitely made a major contribution...

If, on the other hand, you prefer to win, your best bet as Human-Baltar is usually to let people know when you find a Cylon - whether they believe you or not, pinning the Cylons down to at-least-one-of-two and at-most-one-of-three gives your side, overall, an increased chance of winning...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hurd
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert, I'm not sure what point you think you're arguing against. I've read your post over several times, and I really have no idea.

I will however, make one very specific clarification: Baltar is the second-worst person to have brigged, after Roslin. They're the only two characters that have their OPT affected by being in the brig. If some newly-created power allowed one player to voluntarily go to the brig instead of another, Roslin and Baltar are the only character who you'd debate using it on, absent other circumstances.

Anything you can do as Baltar to avoid being brigged is a positive, tangible step towards your team winning. It is +1 card. That's why you'd avoid getting into a "me-vs-him" situation: you have also have a lot to lose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hybridfive wrote:
I will however, make one very specific clarification: Baltar is the second-worst person to have brigged, after Roslin. They're the only two characters that have their OPT affected by being in the brig. If some newly-created power allowed one player to voluntarily go to the brig instead of another, Roslin and Baltar are the only character who you'd debate using it on, absent other circumstances.
Which is why it's not only hilarious when Baltar gets brigged (Apollo's my 2nd favorite target to Brig.... Roslin doesn't get choosen alot, but she'd be up there were it not for that), but Baltar needs to be extra careful about public opinion against him.

hybridfive wrote:
Anything you can do as Baltar to avoid being brigged is a positive, tangible step towards your team winning. It is +1 card. That's why you'd avoid getting into a "me-vs-him" situation: you have also have a lot to lose.
In a "me-vs-him" situation where they're willing to Brig both "me" and "him", some people will go after Baltar anyways if he chooses not to share information. If he's got something to hide and Baltar's not on your team, that's an edge that may need to be dealt with.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hybridfive wrote:
Robert, I'm not sure what point you think you're arguing against. I've read your post over several times, and I really have no idea.


My main point is that individual control over the game is, at best, a proxy for team control over the game, which is what you want in order to win. Arguing that never saying anything as human-Baltar is good because it gives you more individual control is not a good argument because the cost is a reduction in your team's control.


As for the cost of sending Baltar to the Brig, if Baltar's the only character getting locked up, then that suggests it's not just "me-vs-him", but that you've also managed to raise others' suspicions in other ways - if they're that prepared to lock you up and throw away the key, refusing to share important information is unlikely to get them to change their mind. On the other hand, if the plan is to lock both of you up, then the trade-off is between losing 1 card per round and having a human imprisoned, and having a Cylon imprisoned. How many cards is it worth to limit one Cylon's ability to spike checks?

As a Cylon Baltar, accusing a human and getting both of you locked up is a minor victory - you effectively get to use the Brig reveal power, except you get the humans to spend resources to do it for you, and you still get to draw 4 cards rather than 2 per round. By the same token, locking up both Baltar and the player he accuses is unlikely to be a good idea without sufficient reason to suspect them both.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith B
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
You made this statement as a positive effect if you are a cylon and I agree wholeheartedly with the first part

hybridfive wrote:

..., but instead gain general confusion. Even if one of you is later outed as a cylon, it does not implicate the other.


As I see it, the major flaw in your argument is that this very same point applies if you are human. The key to victory for the human team is trust and in sowing confusion you will have done your enemies a (perhaps major) favour.

In my experience a distrusted human often does more for the cyclon cause than an unrevealed cylon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Aachen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the key here is timing. As Baltar you should try to find the best possible moment to use your private knowledge about another players loyalty for the benefit of your team rather than giving it away immediately.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
umbaci wrote:
I think the key here is timing. As Baltar you should try to find the best possible moment to use your private knowledge about another players loyalty for the benefit of your team rather than giving it away immediately.


I agree that there are situations where you can gain by not spilling your guts immediately - for example, if you scan the next player, you may want to hold off on saying they're a Cylon so they don't just use their reveal power immediately. On the other hand, I can't think of a situation of that kind where you're better off refusing to say anything and then speaking than saying one thing initially and then changing your story later - you're more likely to convince the Cylon to trust you if you're actively supporting him, and openly keeping information from people is obviously suspicious in a way that saying something that you are later going to reverse isn't. Yes, the reversal will attract some suspicion, but so will any delayed announcement: "Oh, you've decided he's a Cylon now, have you? Took you a couple of turns to figure out what seeing 'You are a Cylon' on one of his cards means, did it?"

If you have a cogent, immediate goal for claiming a player is human in the short term, then explaining that at the time of your volte-face is generally going to be understood.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hybridfive wrote:
I will however, make one very specific clarification: Baltar is the second-worst person to have brigged, after Roslin. They're the only two characters that have their OPT affected by being in the brig.


See also: Adama, Apollo, Starbuck
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rmsgrey wrote:


I agree that there are situations where you can gain by not spilling your guts immediately - for example, if you scan the next player, you may want to hold off on saying they're a Cylon so they don't just use their reveal power immediately.
With Baltar or loyalty examining effects, we don't check the player to our left b/c he's just going to reveal, without us being able to do anything about it, so we just don't bother with the person to our left.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John-Paul Pizzica
United States
Hoffman Estates
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
The power of W.A.M. compels you!
Avatar
mb
Just had the exact situation the OP described last Saturday:

I, as a rather bored Cylon Baltar, decided to go for a power grab. The second set of loyalty cards are dealt out and I immediately use the ability to look at a character's cards to look at Roslin. Mind you, Roslin has done NOTHING to arouse suspicion at this point. She even took BACK a move that would have reeked of toaster-ness earlier in the game.

Anyhow, I look at the two loyalty cards (human, of course) and with not a lot of prodding, convince everyone at the table that the President is, in fact, a toaster. The poor human is ranting and raving that I'm the toaster, but the blood (Roslin blood) is already in the water. That's all the provocation the player to my left (Cally) needs, and on their turn, they use THEIR once a game ability to pop the President (I've already stripped her of the presidency by this point).

robot Humans lose a morale and myself and my cylon brethern rejoice in our impending victory! robot
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Hurd
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rmsgrey wrote:
By the same token, locking up both Baltar and the player he accuses is unlikely to be a good idea without sufficient reason to suspect them both.


I'm again confused. The appearance of this statement seems to in part contradict earlier portions of the post.

Locking up two people when knowing only one of them is a Cylon is considerable expenditure of resources. You might make arguments for or against it based on game-state, considering factors like the number of non-skill check crises you've encountered, presence of Saul Tigh/Tom Zarek, presence of arrest orders, and the number of cards drawn off of board/card actions and character powers.

But in the abstractly, absent other factors, a double brigging is too costly for me to consider seriously. My personal approximation for that cost is roughly six cards plus the opportunity cost for two actions. That's based on an average card value of 2.25, with the assumption that destiny is unaccounted. That's roughly a crisis and a half. And based on that valuation, I would avoid double briggings whenever possible. That's true of both me playing AS Baltar and playing WITH Baltar.

If anything, I think the better counterargument against me is the one that ackmondual put forward:

ackmondual wrote:
In a "me-vs-him" situation where they're willing to Brig both "me" and "him", some people will go after Baltar anyways if he chooses not to share information. If he's got something to hide and Baltar's not on your team, that's an edge that may need to be dealt with.


Some players are innately suspicious of Baltar. There are degrees of reason associated with that, as has been pointed out on other Baltar-related probability threads. But in turn, some people are innately suspicious of people who choose Baltar. That's slightly less rational. When you're paired up with people who get uncomfortable about secrecy, you have to adjust accordingly. Generally when I play with strangers at cons, it seems like most people who like this game are comfortable with imperfect information.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hybridfive wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
By the same token, locking up both Baltar and the player he accuses is unlikely to be a good idea without sufficient reason to suspect them both.


I'm again confused. The appearance of this statement seems to in part contradict earlier portions of the post.


It's saying to only brig both if you already thought they both might be Cylons anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Aachen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rmsgrey wrote:
I can't think of a situation of that kind where you're better off refusing to say anything and then speaking than saying one thing initially and then changing your story later - you're more likely to convince the Cylon to trust you if you're actively supporting him, and openly keeping information from people is obviously suspicious in a way that saying something that you are later going to reverse isn't.


Then what will you do if the Cylon you just called human reveals before you had the chance to reverse your statement and explain your story? Could be a little bit difficult to convince your teammates to trust you if there is still an unrevealed Cylon left.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
umbaci wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
I can't think of a situation of that kind where you're better off refusing to say anything and then speaking than saying one thing initially and then changing your story later - you're more likely to convince the Cylon to trust you if you're actively supporting him, and openly keeping information from people is obviously suspicious in a way that saying something that you are later going to reverse isn't.


Then what will you do if the Cylon you just called human reveals before you had the chance to reverse your statement and explain your story? Could be a little bit difficult to convince your teammates to trust you if there is still an unrevealed Cylon left.


Still, there's "I was hoping to avoid him revealing before we could Brig him by making him think I was his ally" - and not clearing him before his turn makes it more likely he'll reveal than if you clear him...

Refusing to say anything makes you look more suspicious to both sides, which reduces any potential gain you might get from trying to make someone believe you're on their side...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith B
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
ackmondual wrote:

With Baltar or loyalty examining effects, we don't check the player to our left b/c he's just going to reveal,


I don't follow this logic (at least as a general priciple).

In my opinion a reavlled cylon is less of a threat than a hidden one therefore forcing a reveal is a good idea.

If I am wrong and a revealled cylon is more damaging to the human cause then they should reveal next turn anyway!

I would agree that if you are looking for the cylon (which won't necessarilty be the case - you might, for example, be looking to confirm you have a human admiral) and you suspect the person on your left and some else positioning should be a factor in deciding who's card to examine
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bagg09tn wrote:
ackmondual wrote:

With Baltar or loyalty examining effects, we don't check the player to our left b/c he's just going to reveal,


I don't follow this logic (at least as a general priciple).

In my opinion a reavlled cylon is less of a threat than a hidden one therefore forcing a reveal is a good idea.

If I am wrong and a revealled cylon is more damaging to the human cause then they should reveal next turn anyway!

And it's possible to get the best of both worlds.... they stay unrevealed long enough to say... draw an Arrest Order AND get to use their reveal power. By Brigging or Executing him, you neutralize most of that.

Push come to shove, "They" (other people) don't always follow this sort of logic, so it may be beneficial to manipulate them in that way to keep them unrevealed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.