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Wacht Am Rhein» Forums » General

Subject: A monster game worth getting? rss

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Ian Borrows
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Given the problems the last incarnation of this game had, is this new rendition of the game worth getting? Have the problems been ironed out and is it realy about 3.5 out of 5 complexity?

I like the occassional monster game that doesn't get bogged down in tedius rules and subsets of rules (Battle for Normandy is an excellent example of a monster game that is fun, fluid and worth every penny). How goes WaR or is it too early to say?

Thanks
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Roger Sjögren
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WaR is a very interesting game and well worth having and playing.
Its the best simulation of the Bulge campaign and shows the battle down to batallion/company level.
However the focus is simulation and not abstraction so it is still a very complex game compared to most others.

If you like monsters that are easy on the rules I don't think this is the one. In fact most monsters have been designed to be complex simulations and this is what sets Battle for Normandy appart from them.

One game that might be worth looking into is Where Eagles Dares from MMP. I thought the rules were very fun and easy when we played it, though I might be damaged from to much monstergaming in the past.
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Ian Borrows
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thanks for the reply Roger. I don't mind hefty rules, that's not a problem. However, reading over on Consimworld it seems that the new edition has been released with a lot of errata (including on counters) and there is a fairly terse exchange going on between Mark Pitcavage and Joe Youst as the former wonders how a new edition of the game can be released with so many errors. I have to say I agree with Mark. This is an expensive game and I'm not keen to buy something that requires pages of rules amendments and counters to be replaced/altered. Seems a shame as Ardenne on this scale looks like a great subject.

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Todd Larsen
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Ian,

I had Wacht II on preorder but cancelled last week. The amount of errata indicates there is not much improvement over DGs first try. As far as complexity, I had DGs Wacht I and sold it. Volumous, tedious rules, tons of exceptions and mods. People say it is a great game once you get into it, but I will never know.

one of the funniest things I have read this year on the internet was
Joe Y on CW regarding the new Atlantic Wall from DG (uses the same system as Wacht II) Joe doesn't think the quick play rules will be much more complex than SPIs Operation Typhoon, I actually laughed. Op Typhoon is a breeze, not remotely comparable to the system (GOSS) used in Wacht, Hurtgen or Atlantic Wall, though to be fair the quick play rules are not complete for any of the games.

All just my opinion of course. Really wanted to like Wacht but won't get burned again.
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Ian Borrows
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Thanks Todd (are you the same Todd who plays ATS?)

The insight is very helpful. I've come across a lot of bad opinion about this new edition over on Consimworld and the previous edition has a lot of bad press here on BGG. It looks like a worthy game mired by not inconsiderable problems with rules and volumes of errata. When I look at how well produced The Battle For Normandy (GMT) is and how the errata isn't crippling nor even that major, I am saddened that WaR seems to have been rereleased with a host of issues. It looks like it could have been a great game but instead Mark Pitcavage (of ASL fame) is taking Joe Youst to task over the problems. It's a fair old bit of sparing and I have to say I side with Mark, the game surely shouldn't have been re-released again with so many damn problems.

Still, I can save my money for the upcoming GMT game Panzer and various new ATS titles. Sometimes bad news about a game is good news (i.e. the wallet stays closed).
 
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Todd Larsen
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Biosphere wrote:
Thanks Todd (are you the same Todd who plays ATS?)


Yes, although I guess there may be quite a few of us playing ATS! lol

not too much lately though.
 
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Ian Borrows
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Off topic I know but I see ATS as slowing down a lot, it seems to be very much second fiddle to ASL (which I accept) but the pace of output is painfully slow. There's less new ATS stuff by far. Shame, such a damn good game system.
 
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Roger Sjögren
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Biosphere wrote:
thanks for the reply Roger. I don't mind hefty rules, that's not a problem. However, reading over on Consimworld it seems that the new edition has been released with a lot of errata (including on counters) and there is a fairly terse exchange going on between Mark Pitcavage and Joe Youst as the former wonders how a new edition of the game can be released with so many errors. I have to say I agree with Mark. This is an expensive game and I'm not keen to buy something that requires pages of rules amendments and counters to be replaced/altered. Seems a shame as Ardenne on this scale looks like a great subject.



Yes unfortunately Decision games are the wargaming worlds smelly cousin from the country when it comes to quality control and professional development of their products.
You know beforehand that the playtesting is substandard compared to other companies and some of that beta testing will be things you have to handle when you start up the game for the first time.
Unfortunately they release several seriously cool games that make you sometimes willing to take the plunge anyway. WaR2 at least is one of those games for me.
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Tom Stearns
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Ian I have several posts here of my view of WaR2 including pics and aar. I lso have been reading the stuff on CSW. If you are wargamer and are a fan of The Bulge then WaR2 is a must have for your collection. The components are excellent. The system is really good. The errata is voluminous. But underneath the errata is a game worth having and playing. Too many people gespecily on CSW get hung up on the errata issue and miss out on a great game. Joe is readily available for support. I didnt get new version because im satiafied with version i have. Eagerly awaiting Atlantic Wall though.

Currently Im all wrapped up in Battle for Normandy which is a tremendous game also. It has approx 3 pages of errata. But the expansion is goung to have an expanded rule book with lots of new advanced and optional rules.
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Lars W
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I have bought both then "old" Wacht 2 and this new edition and IMO they are worth every penny of it. Yes you must learn some of the mechanics as they are very different from Panzer Blitz or any standard SPI games, but then it flows superbly. The graphics are wonderful. The only thing I would change is the "admin stuff", to speed up the set up and get going. It could be better organized and a bit more clear. Otherwise it is great! Have now a game of Hurtgen rolling and it is marvelous!
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Mark Pitcavage
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WaRIIv2 is a game in which errata still regularly emerges. There was no development and poor quality control on this game. Basically, players are still beta-testing it.
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Lars W
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Having played some more games of both WaR II and Hurtgen since June last year, I must say I love this game series more and more! Even though there might be some unclear passages, omost players should be experienced enough to judge what is the correct solution to hte problem and then go on, as they are fairly minor IMO.

The counters, the maps, the mechanics... Just wonderful! And if you get stuck on the special rules for every single leader - well then make a house rule and change/ streamline it for sake of easiness or just remove the leaders!

Same thigs go with the maneuver sequence - I once played with a relatively inexperienced opponent and for ease of play I then just let him move his pieces in regular stacks and in any order, conforming to normal stacking limits and it worked out very well.

Just takes a little bit of imagination;-)
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Ian Brown
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I am currently playing this game (version2) and find it most frustrating. There is a fantastic game struggling to get out, but the rules are poorly laid out and there still seem to be some omissions. I have even found some contradictions. Is there any errata out there? I have been a boardgamer for over 35 years and would dearly love to get this right!!!

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Rory Colling
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"GOOS" should be spelled "GOOSE"!blush
 
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Clay Stone
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I think the "GOSS" system is a lot of fun. I don't find the rules that hard or overly complex. I think, and it's just my opinion, that some people hear the GOSS system is too hard and it messes with their head so they go in with this notion that it's going to be very, very difficult to learn the rules when it's actually not so hard to learn the rules and the mechanics are fun.

I feel more people should give the GOSS system a chance and you will see how it shines.




...
 
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