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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Be gone Adventure Packs!!! rss

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Tomas Riha
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Is it just me who really dislikes the current setup with the base+Adventure Packs?

Here is a list of reasons I dont like the setup (in no perticular order).

* Rule Fragmentation
Adding new rules in the packs create fragmented rules. You have the rules of the base set, then you have the big expansion then you hav the adventure packs. Tons of little rules here and there.

* Trait fragmentation
There are dependencies between the Adventure packs which force the customer to buy alot of packs.

The twins are an example of hero to hero dependencies. Rohan, Dwarf, Eagle traits are other examples. Spread out over tons of small packs.

* Quest fragmentation
The base encounter sets of either Core set of Kazdum and the Adventure packs results in long setup times and tons of shuffling. Long setup times always result in less play time for a game and the extensive shuffling needed increases wear and tear on the cards.


I think all these reasons are very frustrating.

Id much rather see Quest Pack and Mini Expansions. Mini Expansions focus on player cards, Rohan Expansion, Secrecy Expansion, Creature Expansion, Dwarf Expansion, Elf Expansion, ect, ect. Quest Packs focus on exactly quests just like Osaglith does.

This would be so much better. They could still release Epic quests that run over several Quest Packs but you would do remove all the shuffling and fragmentation.

Epic quests could/should be designed to inspire purchase of Mini Expansions but not require it. An Epic quest in Khazdum should inspire players to buy the Dwarfen expansion and the mini expansion.

I think this would be much more streamlinded and nice way of delivering the product.

Tomas
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Drew Dallas
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And then I'm buying 2 packs of cards every month for this game? No thanks.
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Tomas Riha
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Im doubt that they would be releasing a mini expansion every month....
 
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Richard Morris
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FFG have designed the AP approach to maximise their profits, not to maximise your enjoyment. You have a simple choice: live with it, or walk away.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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I much prefer how they are doing it. I like the idea that each pack is an adventure.

Jorune
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Ian Hamilton
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It IS FFG after all - they who could not write a coherent rulebook if their lives depended on it!
One just needs to check the Geek forums for almost all FFG games to see the swathes of queries regarding rules.
Trouble is the games are great, it's just the rules that kill you.
My answer, as I usually play within a select group, is to have our own 'house' interpretation of any rulebook and stick to it.
As far as the LOTR LCG is concerned, I gave up after the kazad Dum expansion.
I'd rather use my money to super-pimp my Collectors Edition of War of the Ring.
Rather than make this an FFG dissing session can I just say in conclusion that the QUALITY of their games are second to none except for Days of Wonder whose rulebooks should perhaps be studied by said FFG.
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jakub praibis
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janglybits wrote:

Trouble is the games are great, it's just the rules that kill you.


Not sure about the plural but I stand for that sentence. Love the game (better than any other board/card game I have ever played) but it has tons of issues.

As for the OP, I agree with much. I especially dislike the new rules, keyword introduced with the packs. It does not concern me so far as I have been buying it all but it is not fortunate; especially as I feel many of the rules were known before, they could at least sum them up in the Khazad.
 
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Richard Morris
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jpraibis wrote:
janglybits wrote:

Trouble is the games are great, it's just the rules that kill you.


Not sure about the plural but I stand for that sentence. Love the game (better than any other board/card game I have ever played) but it has tons of issues.

As for the OP, I agree with much. I especially dislike the new rules, keyword introduced with the packs. It does not concern me so far as I have been buying it all but it is not fortunate; especially as I feel many of the rules were known before, they could at least sum them up in the Khazad.


A LCG needs living rules, IMHO. Just update them frequently enough.
 
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Drew Dallas
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TexMurphy wrote:
Im doubt that they would be releasing a mini expansion every month....


Why wouldn't they? They do it currently.
 
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jakub praibis
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When they released Khazad, for instance, they must have had all Dwarrodelf already designed. Thus, it would be easy to write all the new rules into the small Khazad booklet, since you need Khazad for all the Dwarrodelf expansion anyways. When someone then missed a pack, he would not miss a rule. Does that not make sense?
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Richard Morris
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jpraibis wrote:
When they released Khazad, for instance, they must have had all Dwarrodelf already designed. Thus, it would be easy to write all the new rules into the small Khazad booklet, since you need Khazad for all the Dwarrodelf expansion anyways. When someone then missed a pack, he would not miss a rule. Does that not make sense?
Of course. But it also needs foresight and planning, and I don't see much evidence of either. After all, you needed the core set to play the first AP arch, but they did not do the rules for those in the core rules. And, despite them presumably having playtested those APs, they seemed to be surprised by card interactions that followed.
 
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L H
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I would also prefer to have more packs like Osgiliath come along rather than the current AP system. Can anyone honestly say that Osgiliath is not adventurous? Yet it adds no new heroes, event cards, etc. FFG should come up with new adventures giving us only the Quest cards by mixing and matching the current batch of "adventure decks." I would willingly part with a few dollars per month for these new Quest cards, rather than buy another adventure pack.

With that said, I plan on stopping my purchasing of AP once I have all of the Dwarrowdelf packs. As for The Hobbit, I am on a wait and see path. If it is pretty much stand alone and interacts with the cards I currently have, I will buy it. However, if it is like KD and leads to the purchasing of more AP, I will likely forego that purchase.

EDIT: spelling
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Mike Loftus
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Jorune wrote:
I much prefer how they are doing it. I like the idea that each pack is an adventure.

Jorune


This.
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jakub praibis
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
jpraibis wrote:
When they released Khazad, for instance, they must have had all Dwarrodelf already designed. Thus, it would be easy to write all the new rules into the small Khazad booklet, since you need Khazad for all the Dwarrodelf expansion anyways. When someone then missed a pack, he would not miss a rule. Does that not make sense?
Of course. But it also needs foresight and planning, and I don't see much evidence of either. After all, you needed the core set to play the first AP arch, but they did not do the rules for those in the core rules. And, despite them presumably having playtested those APs, they seemed to be surprised by card interactions that followed.


Funny, I was shocked when they missed the Snared Nazgul thing in the core set. Have there been no playtester going "hmm..." (in the Ian McKellen kind of way from the Extras, teaching how to act).
 
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
jpraibis wrote:
When they released Khazad, for instance, they must have had all Dwarrodelf already designed. Thus, it would be easy to write all the new rules into the small Khazad booklet, since you need Khazad for all the Dwarrodelf expansion anyways. When someone then missed a pack, he would not miss a rule. Does that not make sense?
Of course. But it also needs foresight and planning, and I don't see much evidence of either. After all, you needed the core set to play the first AP arch, but they did not do the rules for those in the core rules. And, despite them presumably having playtested those APs, they seemed to be surprised by card interactions that followed.

I've never, in over 15 years of playing expandable card games of one type or another, come across one in which the players didn't create unanticipated card interactions. It's part of the genre.
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Richard Morris
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ScottB wrote:
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
jpraibis wrote:
When they released Khazad, for instance, they must have had all Dwarrodelf already designed. Thus, it would be easy to write all the new rules into the small Khazad booklet, since you need Khazad for all the Dwarrodelf expansion anyways. When someone then missed a pack, he would not miss a rule. Does that not make sense?
Of course. But it also needs foresight and planning, and I don't see much evidence of either. After all, you needed the core set to play the first AP arch, but they did not do the rules for those in the core rules. And, despite them presumably having playtested those APs, they seemed to be surprised by card interactions that followed.

I've never, in over 15 years of playing expandable card games of one type or another, come across one in which the players didn't create unanticipated card interactions. It's part of the genre.


I hear you. But even when thee were not that many cards, they seemed to have missed some interactions. If I compare this to Dominion, it clearly does a much worse job of documenting such interactions. Many of the problems we have discussed on here are down to sloppy wording. Dominion is very careful about its wording: It defines terms up front, and then uses them in a consistent way. LotR defines some terms up front (but not all) and then is sloppy in the usage of those terms on the cards.

Or, put another way: yes there will be unanticipated interactions. But we have already had far too many for the number of cards in play. They seem to be using the players as playtesters and rule writers.
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Paul Hackman
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I'm not sure I understand the OP's solution but I agree that the AP format is becoming problematic.

I don't like the fact that each AP has to introduce totally new Encounter cards rather than utilize some of the ones from previous sets. I don't like that some abilities or traits are useless or weakened unless you have purchased everything in the cycle.

I would much prefer a more typical board game expansion style. Once a year release a big box with all the cards necessary for new rules and traits and with several different quests inside.

I will complete the first two cycles and then I think I'll stop even though I really enjoy the game. I'd happily buy a 30-40 dollar expansion each year for the next decade. But I don't want to spend 10 dollars every month to get part of an expansion, knowing that if I ever skip a month that the card balance will be off or I won't have the rules for a new trait.
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Enon Sci
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
FFG have designed the AP approach to maximise their profits, not to maximise your enjoyment. You have a simple choice: live with it, or walk away.


Actually, keeping the CCG format of boosters and "rares" would maximize their profit over the model they've put forth. Player enjoyment is definitely in consideration, if for no other reason than they need the support of their (relatively small compared to video games) customer base.

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Maël Brustlein
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Adventure Packs are $10 is the US? Urgh. Each one costs 14€ here. zombie
 
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Richard Morris
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Anarchosyn wrote:
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
FFG have designed the AP approach to maximise their profits, not to maximise your enjoyment. You have a simple choice: live with it, or walk away.


Actually, keeping the CCG format of boosters and "rares" would maximize their profit over the model they've put forth. Player enjoyment is definitely in consideration, if for no other reason than they need the support of their (relatively small compared to video games) customer base.

Perhaps, though I doubt it. Of course no one really knows. There is enough of a backlash against the old CCG model that I am not convinced that the take-up for a new game would be worth it. But you may be right.
 
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Jamie Riehl
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Yeah, I like this system too.

That said, I think it would be neat if every so often in the big sets they published a complete expert rule book with all the rules so far including the abilities from adventure packs, errata, faqs and so forth - as a one-stop reference.
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Paul Hackman
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Bob Moron wrote:
Adventure Packs are $10 is the US? Urgh. Each one costs 14€ here. zombie


$9.99 if you buy from one of the big online game stores. $14.99 at your FLGS.
 
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Tim C.
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Could you please give an example of rules fragmentation inter-dependencies between the 60 card adventure packs? So far I've yet to pull out any rules other than the core,first big expansion, and the adventure I'm playing. I've yet to pull out multiple expansion rules. Is there a specific adventure that has rules fragmented all over the place?
 
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Cutthroat Cardboard (Barry)
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I don't have a problem with the rules and card mix etc provided by the AP system the main problem I have is how long to live with it!

I really like the game but I'm not getting enough plays in to justify the ongoing costs. Currently playing Mage Knight so yet again something else is stealing time from LOTR and at the moment the AP's are coming out faster than I can play them. I don't really mind that and see it as an investment for the future but it probably means that there will come a time, possibly in the not too distant future, where I'll draw a line under it.

Others have posted above that they have already stopped or will stop at the end of this cycle. If too many of us take that view then the system won't work for FFG over the long term. That said their other living card games seem to rumble on without problems and LOTR is popular so I'm expecting it to continue on this path for some time to come....
 
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M. S.
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pomomojo wrote:


I would much prefer a more typical board game expansion style. Once a year release a big box with all the cards necessary for new rules and traits and with several different quests inside.



Solution: Buy the whole cycle after it is fully released - problem solved! I dont see any problem here.
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