Scott O'Dell
United States
Nebraska
flag msg tools
mbmb
It seemed to me that having nukes was a huge advantage for humans. It turns out I was somewhat wrong, at least partially. I have witnessed (looking at PBF games and played live games where the President ends the game with at least 1 nuke and many times 2.

I think one of the main problems is the juicy targets--baseships + raiders-- often separate quickly.

So my questions to start the thread are this:

1. Does it makes since to use an XO on the admiral to have him fire a nuke to start the game? Usually with the aid of strategic planning to get the raiders. It seems like this is the clearest situation that is screaming "nuke this, NUKE this now!"

2. If there are two baseships on the map are there any downsides to XOing the admiral and firing off 2 nukes at once? Wouldn't this be the most effective use of nukes?

3. What do you think there general value is--either opened ended or specifically compared to the other powers of the admiral and president. I feel that nukes are very situational and altogether not the strongest action especially when you consider the emotion that "nuking something" evokes.

4. Are there other situations when it makes sense to use nukes? It kind of seems like baseships really aren't that big of a threat in damaging BSG too much. Which therefore makes the nukes less important. It kind of perturbs me that you have to fire at a baseship. What if I am a cylon admiral and I want to target vipers or civvies?


EDIT: I will note I only have the base game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Cylon Fleet Board module of the Exodus expansion does tweak the nukes a bit so that they make more sense to use.

With my group, we almost never see nukes get used, aside from as a cost for the Build Cylon Detector Crisis. With that in mind, I don't think it would be the worst thing to fire off a nuke at the very beginning to get rid of the starting Basestar and perhaps the first Raiders. But then, you never know if you're going to need them later.

Generally, I consider them a tool for disabling or destroying Basestars primarily, with the added bonus of possibly taking out Raiders. But if Raiders are your biggest threat, then there are much better ways to deal with them. So to answer your questions, one-by-one...

1. It makes sense to do this if you don't anticipate multiple Cylon Attack Cards coming up in quick succession, though there's no way to know that at the beginning of the game. It's a gamble, but from my experience, it would be worth it more often than not.
2. If there are two Basestars on the board, I'd definitely be inclined to try to nuke one, but I don't know that I'd necessarily nuke the other. Ideally I'd put the Admiral in Weapons Control, have him nuke the first one and take a regular shot at the second.
3. Like I said before, I don't think the nukes are nearly as powerful an action as I did when I first started playing the game. The only time we ever even think to use them is when there is a swarm of Cylon ships, and that hasn't happened to us in awhile.
4. Under the base game rules, you can only target Basestars, so while you may want to nuke Civilians, there's literally no other time to use them except for when Basestars are out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott O'Dell
United States
Nebraska
flag msg tools
mbmb
Dexter345 wrote:
But then, you never know if you're going to need them later.


Thanks for the response. I enjoyed reading your post. I seem to agree with everything you said.

I will say that the idea of holding onto them for later seems like a popular sentiment (at least for my group of beginners) but I have been trying to argue in my games that "later" never comes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gert Meyer
Denmark
Trekantsområdet
flag msg tools
badge
Skål - Cheers - Gom Bui - Prost - Almien - Salut - Kampai - Na Zdrowie - Gan Bae - Qapla
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Saving them for later is common. As is finishing the game with one or both nukes unused.

My rule of thumb is to always use them on any Basestar when still on step one or two of the jump track if they are together with Raiders. Later in the game I would use them even if they are not with Raiders (as "later" becomes increasingly less likely to come).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you ever want comments about nukes with exp, feel free to request away. Until then.....

CAC = Cylon Attack Card
bs = basestar

PimpMario wrote:
1. Does it makes since to use an XO on the admiral to have him fire a nuke to start the game? Usually with the aid of strategic planning to get the raiders. It seems like this is the clearest situation that is screaming "nuke this, NUKE this now!"
While it's not an automatic cylon accusation, I would prefer to save nukes till that both literal and proverbial time of "later". While there may never be a later, I'd rather have the flexibility for later on. There are exceptions where a jump cycle might be really drawn out, and that takes more gut feeling and some experience than anything else.

Similar deal when people decide when to use their OPG abilities. The convention there is to wait till sleeper phase when you know for sure whcih team you'll be on, but some have used it pre-sleeper out of desparation that there may not be a later. That, and to meta-game the system where you survive in hopes of turning cylon, on account the Colonial fleet is doing THAT bad

Last but not least, ditto with resources. Usually, you let Food slide a bit, and conserve everything else unless you have no chioce but to tank skill checks, or choose resource losses as the lesser of 2 evils, but when you get into certain situations (e.g. Food is down to 2, or you have 4 fuel to jump 2 distance), then what you need to do becomes clear (e.g. respectively, treat Food like morale in it CAN kill u, and be MUCH less concerned about scouting destination deck).

PimpMario wrote:
2. If there are two baseships on the map are there any downsides to XOing the admiral and firing off 2 nukes at once? Wouldn't this be the most effective use of nukes?
Of course, it's better to nuke and take out basestars when you're furthest away from the auto-jump spot, as you'll (theoretically) get max duration benefit from not having basestars around. if you're close to jumping, then until you use Exodus' CFB, jumping removes basestars anyways.

When going after only 1 basestar, u always run the risk that the next crisis card is a CAC, putting out a bs, and thus, effectively undoing the successful nuke you just used. It's less common that 2 CAC will come out close enough to replenish both bs before you jump, but that's happened too, in close proximtiy, and soon enough on the jump prep track.

PimpMario wrote:
3. What do you think there general value is--either opened ended or specifically compared to the other powers of the admiral and president. I feel that nukes are very situational and altogether not the strongest action especially when you consider the emotion that "nuking something" evokes.
The usual roles still present themselves... Adm has more control over fuel and pop, while Pres. over Food and Morale, with occassional spills into each others' territories (e.g. Pres. has Qcards like ABF that helps save population; or adm does get a rare crisis card like Riots that target "inners" food + morale or "outers" fuel + pop)

Although in all fairness, Qcards can be very situational too.

PimpMario wrote:
4. Are there other situations when it makes sense to use nukes? It kind of seems like baseships really aren't that big of a threat in damaging BSG too much. Which therefore makes the nukes less important. It kind of perturbs me that you have to fire at a baseship.

Sometimes, you may want to hope for 2 damage to a bs instead of outright destruction since a crippled bs still counts, so no further ones are put out when a CAC needs to be resolved, but the bs not being able to launch ships or shoot really does make it much less threatening.

Speaking of which, having 2 bs out in itself isn't a threat... it IS when they launch ships and fire at Galatica when things can get very dangerous. having 4 raiders ain't bad, but having a "launch raiders" now means 10 raiders. Yet another... 16 raiders! With some team work, you can manage that sitution, but it's nothing to sneer at.

if u have 2 back to back revealed cylons with 2 bs out there, or 2 from crisis cards, that can be harmful right there. Worse part is, until you get rid of the bs, they can be continually used to shoot at Galatica.

for fun.... hypothetical situation where Gal. got shot 3 times...
4 basestar shots d8 + d8 + d8 + d8 = (7) + (2) + (5) + (7) = 21

Using a randomizer app on my Ipod Touch...
Armory, AQ, food (rsrc)
... not too bad. It could've been worse. But these are the sort of risks that you could've managed, unless you had bigger fish to fry.


PimpMario wrote:
What if I am a cylon admiral and I want to target vipers or civvies?
EDIT: I will note I only have the base game.
Can't do that. One exp thing I will mention is when playing with Exo's CFB, the adm targets a space sector instead of a bs. Also, as per that option's/module's rules, an 8 means ALL ships are destroyed... cylon and Colonial.

In short, the game's thematic, but not THAT thematic. Galatica can't shoot its own ships (in the show, Galatica has a "firing solution" that puts up a defensive perimeter vs. raiders, but vipers are "immune" b/c the pilots memorized where they are and know how to deal with them); vipers can't fire on their own; Starbuck can't knife Saul and execute him (although I'd like to think he'd be a match with a bottle in hand ); etc.


EDIT: mismatched tags
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
  • [+]
  • 132394. ackmondual
  • d8 + d8 + d8 + d8 =
  • (7) + (2) + (5) + (7) =
  • 21
  • 4 basestar shots
  • Fri May 25, 2012 10:16 pm
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
flag msg tools
badge
I'll think of something witty to put here...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One Basestar on its own is not much of a threat; it's more of a nuisance. Hitting it once with Weapons Control can be nice (but not essential), though if you're going to jump soon it's more beneficial to ignore the Basestar and launch scout or use press room or something.

Two Basestars is more of an issue and should be taken seriously, especially as this usually means you've had two Cylon attack cards, so there's twice as many raiders and civilian ships out. In this situation, I recommend nuking one Basestar and focussing on keeping civilians safe.

Again if you're going to jump soon there's not much point nuking Basestars. I don't normally Strat-Plan nuke rolls, getting rid of 3 extra raiders is nice, but should be seen as a bonus rather than the goal of nuking the Basestar (unless you're desperate I guess). Even a roll of 1-2 will damage the Basestar twice, which has a 50% chance of destroying it anyway, or else it will be highly damaged (two of: can't shoot, can't launch, +2 to hit).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Nukes are the colonial fleet's insurance policy. While it's true most of the time that using one early doesn't change the outcome of the game, what matters when it comes to whether it's the right move or not is what happens in those games where it does make the difference. My gut says it's more likely that something bad happens later that you need the nuke for than that the additional damage from the initial deployment decides the game...

Ending the game with nukes in hand nine times out of ten suggests you might consider whether to use them more aggressively, but it's also plausible that the optimal nuke strategy does leave them in the tubes most games...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott O'Dell
United States
Nebraska
flag msg tools
mbmb
The other thing about "leaving them in the tubes" until later which might be post sleeper is the admiral has a higher chance of being a cylon and you have saved nukes and maybe XOed the admiral who may take that chance to reveal.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
PimpMario wrote:
The other thing about "leaving them in the tubes" until later which might be post sleeper is the admiral has a higher chance of being a cylon and you have saved nukes and maybe XOed the admiral who may take that chance to reveal.

Which is precisely why as Admiral I like saving my nukes for after the sleeper phase. whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott O'Dell
United States
Nebraska
flag msg tools
mbmb
If you not a Cylon pre sleeper (in a standard 5 player game) you have a 2 in 9 (or 22%) chance of becoming a Cylon right? Therefore it makes sense to play your butt off for team Human.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
PimpMario wrote:
If you not a Cylon pre sleeper (in a standard 5 player game) you have a 2 in 9 (or 22%) chance of becoming a Cylon right? Therefore it makes sense to play your butt off for team Human.


Well, if there are no Cylons out pre-Sleeper, you have a 40% chance of turning Cylon; 1 Cylon and it's somewhere between 20% and 40% (depending on how likely the Cylon is to pick you to get the second Cylon card if he gets it) - call it 25% - and if both Cylons are out pre-Sleeper, then you have a 0% chance of becoming Cylon at Sleeper. You should be able to start guessing which fairly early. Even in the worst case, you're still more likely to remain Human than to change sides, so given a choice between playing pro-Cylon and pro-Human, you should go pro-Human, all else being equal.

On the other hand, if you have a chance to save a strong action for later, even if it would be a bit less effective then, it's often going to increase your overall chance of winning - the small loss to your human chances are more than balanced by the increase in your Cylon chances...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
flag msg tools
badge
I'll think of something witty to put here...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PimpMario wrote:
If you not a Cylon pre sleeper (in a standard 5 player game) you have a 2 in 9 (or 22%) chance of becoming a Cylon right? Therefore it makes sense to play your butt off for team Human.


Yes, but it makes even more sense to play for Team You.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.