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Subject: Card wording help request: Merry-Go-Round rss

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Dave Hollinsworth
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The new Dominion: Dark Ages expansion will apparently have cards that do something when trashed. This, along with all the other "when this card does something" effects from Hinterlands and others, made me think of this fan card:

Merry-Go-Round
Action - Cost 3
+1 Action
Choose a card in a Supply pile.
Gain that card, putting it into your hand.
[Then, put that card into play.]
Then, discard that card.
Then, trash that card.
Then, return that card to the Supply.

General opinions on the silliness that could result welcome, but I wanted to ask about the part in [brackets]. I'm trying to find a compact, understandable way to say "the normal, above-the-line effects of the card don't trigger, but any 'when you play this' or similar effects do". For example, choosing a Contraband with this card wouldn't give you the coins or the buy, but would let the player to your left deny you a buy choice. (Yes, not the smartest play available.) Any suggestions?

I might also need to explicitly say that the game cannot end because of the chosen card leaving the Supply, since it will eventually be returned, just in case.

Thoughts? Thank you very much.
 
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Here's how I would word it.

Merry-Go-Round
Action
Cost: 3
+1 Action
Choose a Supply pile that is not empty.
Gain a card from that supply pile, putting that card into your hand.
Play that card.
Discard that card.
Trash that card.
Return that card to the Supply.

The caution here is that Merry-Go-Round, by itself, could give you multiple actions. Just pick Merry-Go-Round every time. Each time you pick it, you get to choose another one to 'send around the Merry-Go-Round'.

Remove the +1 Action on the card. It's not necessary. If you want a +1 Action when you play this card, all you have to do is choose an Action in a supply pile that has +1 Action on it.

Also, the cost is far too low. It is basically any action card you want it to be, as you get to play it. Even if the action card doesn't stay in play, it still gets played.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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... which is precisely why the intent is to not play the card.

The question is how best to frame the act of putting the card into play without triggering its effects as played. Thusly, Spy will not grant +1 Action & +1 Card, but it will trigger Reactions such as Horse Traders and Secret Chamber.
 
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Jack Rudd
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Thusly, Spy will not grant +1 Action & +1 Card, but it will trigger Reactions such as Horse Traders and Secret Chamber.


No it won't. Those react to the Spy's being played, not to its being in play.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Congratulations on re-stating the problem. Have you got a solution?
 
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Why would you ever want to choose an attack card like Spy to allow your opponents to play Horse Traders or Secret Chamber?

Perhaps the correct question is: Why would anyone want to put a card into play but not resolve its text? Is there a card currently printed that gives you an advantage when put into play or discarded from play? I can't find one that would be useful. Treasury and Alchemist give advantages when discarded from play, but that would be rendered useless once you fulfill the remainder of Merry-Go-Round (it'd be returned back to the supply anyway).

It seems we're discussing an idea that is completely useless in the current collection of cards.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I'm getting the ever-deepening feeling that I'm the only one who read the original post....

For one, I can see this card, as printed, allowing Conspirators to kick into full gear after the play of Merry-Go-Round targets an Action card in the supply, so: In response to the immediately preceding question -- Yes. Yes, there is currently a card in existence that'll have some sort of benefit to the playing of a card that doesn't resolve its normal effect when played, but count as played all the same.
 
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I missed Conspirator! Good catch! But, Consiprator does say if you've played 3 or more Actions this turn. With the way the OP is defining the card, you would put them into play, not play them. It's a tight distinction, but if you aren't using the card's text, you aren't playing them.

I still don't think there is any real reason to add the 'put the card into play' component of the card. It doesn't trigger off of anything (except, possibly Conspirator... but, if it only has application with one card in the entire world of Dominion, it's not worth the hassle.)

And, I did read the original post. I misread it in my first reply - I didn't understand that he did not intend for the card to not be played for its effect. That misunderstanding was rooted in the fact that placing a card into play and then removing it from play has no usable effect in the game at this point.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Fair enough but the original post states clearly that this is musing about the upcoming Dark Ages which are rumored to have "when played" effects. You are right that Conspirator specifies that it is stronger when other cards are played and not simply in play, which is why Durations from last turn don't help it. That is the part he is trying to work out. How to get the effects triggered by playing a card, such as Conspirator, Horse Traders, Secret Chamber, and whatever Dark Ages surprises us with, without getting the card's normal effect upon being played.

Merry-Go-Round is specifically looking to put into effect all the cool stuff that triggers when cards are gained, played, discarded, and trashed but not looking to take advantage of the card's main purpose. For example: Play Merry-Go-Round, choose Inn, shuffle any Action cards that you choose from your discard pile into your deck, then [effectively, since nothing else so far matters] return Inn to the supply. You won't get +2 Actions or discard 2 cards, because you aren't actually playing Inn. The card, as proposed and with the existing card catalog, has merit. It might not be the most fantastic and always-useful card but that's really not the point.

The point is we're challenged with a puzzle to figure out how to word this particular card effect so that it functions as intended.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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My best guess is to take advantage of the "[Do what the card says, as much of it as you can]" rule by saying:

Play the card, but treat it as if you cannot do any of the stuff that playing the card says to do.

Only, you know, not so hackneyed.

...

Keep in mind, this easily takes advantage of non-Actions, too. For example, if you target Fool's Gold with Merry-Go-Round, the Fool's Gold in your hand will count as 4 coins when you play it, since you've already played one this turn (even if you didn't actually generate a coin from it).

Also, a Fool's Gold in someone else's hand can be trashed to put Gold atop that player's deck if you target a Province with Merry-Go-Round, if the bearer of that card so chooses.

You could target a Duchy to actually gain a Duchess, if one is available.

You could choose Vault as the target and everyone else would have the opportunity to discard 2 cards to draw 1, but that's really altruistic. So would be targeting Embassy (unless none of your opponents have any Treasure cards as weak as Silver, holding all Golds, Platinums, and Banks, maybe).

It won't do much with Venture, by contrast, since Venture's effect is all upon being played.

Choose Cache as your target, if you really want a pair of Coppers, like, say, you are holding a Counting House or gobbling up Gardens.

If it were possible to have Hoard in play by the time you use Merry-Go-Round, targeting a Victory Card would cause you to gain Gold.

Tunnel seems like an obvious choice, for the "discard" effect that Merry-Go-Round seems to have included especially for it.
 
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Fair enough but the original post states clearly that this is musing about the upcoming Dark Ages which are rumored to have "when played" effects. You are right that Conspirator specifies that it is stronger when other cards are played and not simply in play, which is why Durations from last turn don't help it. That is the part he is trying to work out. How to get the effects triggered by playing a card, such as Conspirator, Horse Traders, Secret Chamber, and whatever Dark Ages surprises us with, without getting the card's normal effect upon being played.

Don't all Actions currently have 'when played' effects on them? When you play them, you get what is printed on the card. I may be wrong (it happens often), but I can't find where it says Dark Ages will include cards that have 'when played' effects. I guess it could happen if the text was on Treasure cards, as they are played in the Buy phase.

I think the rest of the text on the card has merit, though, and could be great with some setups. Granted, it could also be completely useless in others.

How about: "Play this card for no effect."
 
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Destry Miller
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You should add a "When gained" effect to Merry-Go-Round, so if there aren't any other cards with non-Action effects, it's still worth playing on a Merry-Go-Round. Something simple like "When gained, +2 coins", so it's a Silver.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I can think of about three things wrong with putting:

When gained, +2 coins

on a card.

...

But I take your point. Perhaps "When this card is trashed, +2 coins." That'll work for what Merry-Go-Round does, may be useful even when someone just wants to get a bunch of these and hit 'em all with Chapel.
 
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Gerald Katz
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I don't get the point of the card. Why choose an action card from the Supply to put into play if you aren't going to get any benefit from it? Why choose Militia, for example, if I'm not getting $2 and other players are not discarding down to 3 cards? Why choose Laboratory if I'm not getting +2 cards + 1 action. That it has synergy with Conspirator is just a coincidence. The card doesn't seem to have a point in its own right.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Many answers you seek, hadsil, are in this thread.
 
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