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Subject: Deactivation questions rss

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James Webb
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Deactivation questions (from a 5 player game) -

HRE has a -1 card chit when deactivated. Is this kept or discarded?

France is sieging Frankfurt, controls Strasburg and has units there (and a path back to France). HRE is deactivated - it's clear the sieging units in Frankfurt return to nearest fortified space per deactivation rules. Strasburg is a HRE home region but controlled by France. What happens to the units in Strasburg?

Ottomans win the control evaluation for HRE. Is deactivation mandatory (can they refuse?)
 
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Björn “Beorn” Rabenstein
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bogey_one wrote:

HRE has a -1 card chit when deactivated. Is this kept or discarded?


That's an interesting question. One might argue, it stays there until next time the major power gets cards dealt (which might be immediately if it is the deactivation performed back to back with a following activation - or which might be much later if the power stays deactivated for a while).

bogey_one wrote:

Strasburg is a HRE home region but controlled by France. What happens to the units in Strasburg?


I guess units are not displaced from spaces they control, even if they are home spaces of the deactivating power. But that's not clearly stated in the rules.

bogey_one wrote:

Ottomans win the control evaluation for HRE. Is deactivation mandatory (can they refuse?)


That seems to be mandatory, as discussed elsewhere.

Another question that just came to my mind: It's clearly stated in the scenario book that all "At War" markers are removed upon activation. I'd expect that all "Allied" markers are removed, too, but that's nowhere stated. (Only the "Ally of Major Power" marker is mentioned explicitly.)
 
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Steven
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bogey_one wrote:

Deactivation questions (from a 5 player game) -

HRE has a -1 card chit when deactivated. Is this kept or discarded?


I would think it would be removed during the next card draw phase. All -1 card chits are removed during the card draw phase.

VQ rules, pg 9 wrote:
After computing the cards from square control markers, add one extra card if this power receives a card bonus from their ruler. Then add and subtract cards from this power’s total as indicated by any +1 or –1 Card markers accumulated by this power. Once the card total has been updated, remove all +1/–1 Card markers except those from foreign wars still in progress or from the construction
of the Suez Canal.


These newly dealt cards are combined with the power’s Home
card(s) and any unused cards from the previous turn to form the
power’s “hand” for the upcoming turn.


So the -1 marker would only get removed during the card draw phase, even though the HRE could be deactivated and reactivated.

Quote:
France is sieging Frankfurt, controls Strasburg and has units there (and a path back to France). HRE is deactivated - it's clear the sieging units in Frankfurt return to nearest fortified space per deactivation rules. Strasburg is a HRE home region but controlled by France. What happens to the units in Strasburg?


Unsure actually. This might need clarification when Ed returns.

VQ scenario book, pg 12 wrote:
Units from other powers are displaced if they occupy one of the deactivating power’s home spaces. Move land units to the nearest friendly-controlled fortified space and naval units to the nearest friendly-controlled port


It seems like they would be discplaced because you are in the deactivated power's home space (Strausburg and Frankfurt). This would be very different than a minor power, because you could lose control of keys you have taken. [Not sure, see my comment below]

However, remember when you deactivate a major power, you award the bonus "Activated Major +1 VP" or "Activated Major -1 VP" bonus VPs. So France's enemy will more than likely be getting negative VPs which they could never get rid of!

On the other hand... there are no rules stating you remove control markers, so this needs to be clarified!

Quote:
Ottomans win the control evaluation for HRE. Is deactivation mandatory (can they refuse?)


No. The Ottomans will be forced to deactivate the HRE.
 
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David Moeller
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Only one diplo status check per turn allowed. Thus the HRE could NOT be deactivated and reactivated before the next card draw phase. Since a deactivated power will not draw cards during card draw phase and cannot possibly be deactivated till after the next card draw phase, any +/- card draw chit is effectively moot when that power gets deactivated.
 
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Steven
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david_1214 wrote:
Only one diplo status check per turn allowed. Thus the HRE could NOT be deactivated and reactivated before the next card draw phase. Since a deactivated power will not draw cards during card draw phase and cannot possibly be deactivated till after the next card draw phase, any +/- card draw chit is effectively moot when that power gets deactivated.


It is possible, Dave.

If let's say Spain controls the HRE and the HRE's status is resolved. If England wins control you follow this procedure:

Deactivate the HRE from Spain.
Activate the HRE to England.

The -1 card marker could then affect the amount of HRE cards England is dealt.
 
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Björn “Beorn” Rabenstein
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The problem is: If a currently active power is activated by another power, the procedure is to first deactivate from the old power and then activate for the new power. In that case, you also deal a new hand, and the question is if the -1 marker is applied then or not.

I think I like the idea most that it stays until the next regular card dealing phase. If at that moment, the power is inactive, it's just discarded, but if the power is still active, the marker is included in the card count.
 
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David Moeller
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Ah I had read that as a "deactivate result followed by an activation later". You instead refer to the de/reactivation which occurs after an activation result.
 
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Mark Maginity
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
bogey_one wrote:

Deactivation questions (from a 5 player game) -

HRE has a -1 card chit when deactivated. Is this kept or discarded?


I would think it would be removed during the next card draw phase. All -1 card chits are removed during the card draw phase.

VQ rules, pg 9 wrote:
After computing the cards from square control markers, add one extra card if this power receives a card bonus from their ruler. Then add and subtract cards from this power’s total as indicated by any +1 or –1 Card markers accumulated by this power. Once the card total has been updated, remove all +1/–1 Card markers except those from foreign wars still in progress or from the construction
of the Suez Canal.


These newly dealt cards are combined with the power’s Home
card(s) and any unused cards from the previous turn to form the
power’s “hand” for the upcoming turn.


So the -1 marker would only get removed during the card draw phase, even though the HRE could be deactivated and reactivated.


I don't think there's anything particularly magic about the removal of the -1/+1 card chits in the card draw phase; it's simply the cleanup after the first chance that arises under normal game play to apply the penalty/bonus. My vote is to treat the Deal Cards step of the Activation procedure like a card draw phase, especially since any cards previously held are discarded: apply the -1/+1 card chits, then remove the chits. This approach does have the consequence that the penalty/bonus may occasionally have no effect due to the other limits on hand size in the Deal Cards step.

I think this is another situation where the developers didn't think through all the possibilities when they created the rules for less than 6 players. Another example of this is the handling of the Selim II card, which is discussed on another thread.
 
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Ed Beach
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Anyone reviewing this thread should refer to this one:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/811349/collected-major-p...

... where the answers to unresolved issues on minor powers were provided.

Let me know if there is anything else still unclear.
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