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Mr. Jack in New York» Forums » Rules

Subject: Last move rss

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Andre Oliveira
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If in the last round the detective still has no clue as to who is Jack, if he takes a wild guest and tries to arrest a random suspect and guesses right, does he win?
Tks!
 
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Dan Squires
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I don't think there is anything in the rules against this.
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Cindy Nowak
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There is nothing in the rules at all against this. Some people don't think it's "fair" but it is allowed.
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David desJardins
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How would you tell whether he's taking a wild guess or an informed guess?
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Andre Oliveira
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Well, allowed or not, that's a killer for me. It's hard enough for Jack to survive until the end just to see the inspector win on a lucky guess like that.
I'm gonna have to house rule that you can only take a guess at the final round if you can prove that you knew who Jack was based on alibi cards you've collected along the way.
 
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David desJardins
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aro246 wrote:
I'm gonna have to house rule that you can only take a guess at the final round if you can prove that you knew who Jack was based on alibi cards you've collected along the way.


This pretty much defeats the whole point of the game, which is to reward the detective player for gathering information. Most of the time, you won't be able to prove the target, but you have a better chance of winning the more information you collect. There are also a whole lot of valid inferences from how the opponent plays, that are not "proof" but can make one possibility much more likely than another.

If this really bothers you so much, you would be better off getting rid of the game and playing something else.
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Andre Oliveira
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David,

You make a very good point about the deduction process and of educated guesses at the end of the game being "fair" and actually an intrinsic part of the mechanic. I'll agree with you on this.

But at the same time, I've played games where the inspector player confessed having won by sheer luck at the last round, and that gave us a feeling of a very anti-climatic experience.

I think it is too good a design for that possibility to arise at the end of a close match.
 
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David desJardins
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I agree that it can be slightly annoying for the result to come down to a guess. But it's a short enough game that you can play several times and your winning percentage will be noticeably higher if you guess better. If you think of it as, you're going to play a bunch of times and the better you play the more games you will win, rather than, you're going to play once and you expect the "better" player to win, then it will seem like less of a problem.

Another game that often comes down to a 50-50 guess at the end is Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation. But it's not a big "problem", it's just the way the game is. Like in this game, the better you play the more often you will win, but there's no way you can win every time.
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Paulo Santoro
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André, eu havia colocado a mesma questão no seguinte tópico:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/565784/is-it-fairethical...

No fim, acabei concordando com o pessoal. Não precisa de house rule, não.

Abraço!
 
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Andre Oliveira
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Hi Paulo,

In both your post and on this one I've heard good arguments about the guessing at the final round being fair and part of the design. And now I'm convinced that I shouldn't create a house rule for this.

I like Mr.Jack in NY because it is a much more balanced game than the original one. But for that reason, I think that many matches might end up being decided on the last round, which will make that situation of a wild guess winning the game being not so rare.

And that is why this game will never be, for me, an 8/10 or higher.

Thank you guys for your contributions for this discussion.

Best,

Andre
 
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David H
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In the original Mr. Jack, a last turn guess was fairly common. However, in the New York version, I find that the game rarely gets to the end. For the detective, it is much easier to isolate characters, and for Mr. Jack it is substantially easier to escape. Both of those forces cause the game to move to a resolution before the end of the 8 turn limit.

That said, if I am the detective, I'll guess in round 7, since in round 8 Mr. Jack gets to move first and can often move in such a way as to make it impossible to land on the correct character to make the accusation.
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David desJardins
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aro246 wrote:
I like Mr.Jack in NY because it is a much more balanced game than the original one. But for that reason, I think that many matches might end up being decided on the last round, which will make that situation of a wild guess winning the game being not so rare.


I'm not sure what you mean about Mr. Jack, but in my experience the majority of games, in that original game, come down to some kind of guess. The only way it's not a guess is if Jack escapes (very rare) or if the detective uniquely identifies Jack. Most of the time, the detective has to make some sort of guess before time runs out, I think in an "average" game the detective has to guess among two possibilities (which makes it a 50-50 guess, which is why the game is roughly balanced).

If you think it's not thematic, just imagine that the police are going to have to choose one suspect to apprehend, and if they choose the right suspect then they will search his or her home and find incriminating evidence, etc., but if they choose the wrong suspect that will give the true criminal time to cover his or her tracks.
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bog danov
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aro246 wrote:


I like Mr.Jack in NY because it is a much more balanced game than the original one. But for that reason, I think that many matches might end up being decided on the last round, which will make that situation of a wild guess winning the game being not so rare.



A common strategy in NY is to constantly threaten to set up a situation where the Mr. Jack player will have several characters in a postion to escape on turns 3 och 5. As a result the inspector might be forced to take a guess much earlier on, between more suspects and with less information from previous moves. This makes the inspector having to either play more safely or risking these kinds of scenarios. Therefore, altough a lot of games in NY are also decided by some sort of guess, they are often not done so late as in turn 7, and commonly between more suspects than in the standard version. And I would assume this is one of the factors that makes it more balanced.

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David desJardins
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Good point, there's not much difference between guessing whom to accuse, and guessing whom to allow to escape.
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Andre Oliveira
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Played it twice last night.
Now I get it. You guys are totally right. No need for house ruling here.

Thanks!
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