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Subject: Question for the real voices of experience rss

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Pedro Silva
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From those you list I'd agree on:

- downtime
- lack of control
- too cramped
- too chaotic

But I'd have another reason not to be interested in something like this, which is:

Don't mess with what works!

T&E is the masterpiece of a master designer. Usually, when people mess with masterpieces, they make a master mess...
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Moshe Callen
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The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.
 
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Jimmy Okolica
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I think 5 or 6 player might work if you created an entirely new board, i..e one where the fourth, fifth and sixth players aren't starting without any good places to go (although to be fair, in our T&E tournaments, the goat seems to do surprisingly well).

Of course, with a new board, you'd need to come up with a new quantity of tiles and tile distribution. If you did all that, I think T&E could play well with 5 or 6.

I can't remember if the Nile map changed the tile distribution or not, but it certainly created a new map that worked better with just 2 players. I think you'd need to do something comparable to move up to 5 or 6.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Lee;

Yes, I think that is the problem.

Even if one created a different board, as my brilliant wife points out, this isn't the sort of game where one would necessarily want to wait for potentially five other people to go. I look at the game as virtually abstract, a good thing IMO, and the more players there are, the less control a person has of the board.
 
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p55carroll
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And yet the BGG listing says T&E is best for 4 players. Hmm ...

Also:

Quote:
The Hans im Glück version states it is for 2-4 players; the Mayfair Games version states it is for 3-4 players.
 
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Moshe Callen
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
And yet the BGG listing says T&E is best for 4 players. Hmm ...

Also:

Quote:
The Hans im Glück version states it is for 2-4 players; the Mayfair Games version states it is for 3-4 players.

Yes, it's listed as 4 players. What's your point?
 
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Peter Mumford
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The HiG printing supports 2p.
 
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p55carroll
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ldsdbomber wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
And yet the BGG listing says T&E is best for 4 players. Hmm ...

Also:

Quote:
The Hans im Glück version states it is for 2-4 players; the Mayfair Games version states it is for 3-4 players.

Yes, it's listed as 4 players. What's your point?


I imagine Patrick is commenting on the downtime issue, if 4 to 5 is such a great problem, you would think 3 to 4 might be a similar issue, yet its more recommended with 4, i.e. probably its more a case of space and room on the board, though I'm only guessing here.

Yeah, that and Moshe's comment about one player being "in an untenable position" when there are 4 players.

I'm babbling out of ignorance here, never having played the game, but I've heard a couple T&E fans say they think it's best with 2 players, and that would make sense, given some of the comments about 4 players. So, I'm surprised to see that the game is supposedly best with 4, according to popular opinion.

I'm especially surprised to learn that the current edition is for just 3 or 4 players. A few years ago, it seemed like everybody recommending T&E to me was raving about what a great 2-player game it makes.
 
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Rex Moore
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Quote:
The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.

This is false. According to some stats from a few years ago, the fourth player has a lower win percentage than the third, the third lower than the second, and the second lower than the first. But untenable? Um, no.

I don't mind at all starting last. I wonder if the stats have tightened up any as people have gained experience over the years.

Quote:

I'm babbling out of ignorance here, never having played the game, but I've heard a couple T&E fans say they think it's best with 2 players, and that would make sense, given some of the comments about 4 players. So, I'm surprised to see that the game is supposedly best with 4, according to popular opinion.

I think it's best with four, also. Three-player is a bit different, and 2-player has an entirely different feel. All are excellent, however.
 
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Moshe Callen
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orangeblood wrote:
Quote:
The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.

This is false. According to some stats from a few years ago, the fourth player has a lower win percentage than the third, the third lower than the second, and the second lower than the first. But untenable? Um, no.

I don't mind at all starting last. I wonder if the stats have tightened up any as people have gained experience over the years.

Quote:

I'm babbling out of ignorance here, never having played the game, but I've heard a couple T&E fans say they think it's best with 2 players, and that would make sense, given some of the comments about 4 players. So, I'm surprised to see that the game is supposedly best with 4, according to popular opinion.

I think it's best with four, also. Three-player is a bit different, and 2-player has an entirely different feel. All are excellent, however.

I was careful in my wording and said usually the 4th player-- not always. In my experience of the game, one player in a 4 player game is always pretty much out of it from the beginning, with rare exceptions.
 
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Rex Moore
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whac3 wrote:
Quote:
The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.

This is false. According to some stats from a few years ago, the fourth player has a lower win percentage than the third, the third lower than the second, and the second lower than the first. But untenable? Um, no.

Quote:
I was careful in my wording and said usually the 4th player-- not always.

Not careful enough: Your statement is worded so that one player is always in an untenable position.

Quote:
In my experience of the game, one player in a 4 player game is always pretty much out of it from the beginning, with rare exceptions.

That has rarely been the case in the 444 plays I've logged so far. Even rarer will it happen to a good player.
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Tim Gilberg
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Patrick Carroll wrote:


I'm babbling out of ignorance here, never having played the game, but I've heard a couple T&E fans say they think it's best with 2 players, and that would make sense, given some of the comments about 4 players. So, I'm surprised to see that the game is supposedly best with 4, according to popular opinion.


There is a lot of commentary on a lot of games asserting lower player counts--two or maybe three--is best. Many gamers seem to prefer an open board with less competition and, especially, less need to react to the play of other players.
 
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Fraser
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Back in the days when there were less maps we played every map back to back
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photocurio wrote:
The HiG printing supports 2p.
All printings support two player, it's just that the Mayfair copy says 3-4 on the box. Same pieces, same map, same rules. It works two player, you don't need the HiG edition meeple
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Moshe Callen
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orangeblood wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Quote:
The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.

This is false. According to some stats from a few years ago, the fourth player has a lower win percentage than the third, the third lower than the second, and the second lower than the first. But untenable? Um, no.

Quote:
I was careful in my wording and said usually the 4th player-- not always.

Not careful enough: Your statement is worded so that one player is always in an untenable position.

Quote:
In my experience of the game, one player in a 4 player game is always pretty much out of it from the beginning, with rare exceptions.

That has rarely been the case in the 444 plays I've logged so far. Even rarer will it happen to a good player.

Yes, among a et of four, one will be.
 
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p55carroll
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schnitzelcore wrote:
whac3 wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Quote:
The first issue I'd see is that 4 players is already too many really in the sense that one of the players, usually the last one, is in an untenable position virtually from the start.

This is false. According to some stats from a few years ago, the fourth player has a lower win percentage than the third, the third lower than the second, and the second lower than the first. But untenable? Um, no.
Quote:
I was careful in my wording and said usually the 4th player-- not always.

Not careful enough: Your statement is worded so that one player is always in an untenable position.
Quote:
In my experience of the game, one player in a 4 player game is always pretty much out of it from the beginning, with rare exceptions.

That has rarely been the case in the 444 plays I've logged so far. Even rarer will it happen to a good player.

Yes, among a et of four, one will be.

Not in my (reigning bgg 4p knockout champion) experience.

Will too.

Won't neither.

Will too.

Won't neither.

. . .

Now, that's the voice of experience!
 
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Jimmy Okolica
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schnitzelcore wrote:

Not in my experience.


completely agree.


schnitzelcore wrote:

Not in my (reigning bgg 4p knockout champion) experience.


oh yeah! not for long! when's the next tournament? come on, I'm ready to go.

You know you'll have a huge target on your back which the rest of us will be happy to encourage and take advantege of.
 
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