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I really, really like Roslin without the CFB.

As a cylon, the appeal is obvious.

As a human, I'm generally trying to (i) give up the presidency to a player I trust, (ii) take a non-location action every turn, with the usual priority being (a) an XO and (b) a consolidate power for a color we're short on and (iii) use my OPT to pick the best crisis, with the general heuristic that CACs are the worst, and a crisis with a jump point is better than one without it. I've turned games into completely lopsided affairs by doing so, burying two nasty CAC's and ensuring more jump points. While I have not verified it, somebody in my group told me that a jump point is on approximately 55% of cards, which means that Roslin has an 80% chance of being able to feed the fleet a jump.

After a few games with the CFB, Roslin just doesn't seem as good.

First, and most obviously, there are no CAC's to bury.

Second, the three yellow/two green draw becomes a bit more irritating. Without the CFB, not having an XO can be annoying. With it, there are more situations in which not having an XO can be extremely damaging.

Third, the situations in which a location such as communications/command need to be activated are substantially much more frequent. In a 5 player game, there will inevitably only be 3 human players after the sleeper phase. Hopefully, one of them is a pilot in space, leaving just two people left. It's too expensive in general for Roslin to activate locations, and she can't feasibly park herself somewhere useful and get XO'd to use it twice.

Fourth, it is no longer the case that jumping early is always good, so her ability to more consistently grab a jump point is less useful.

There is one way that the CFB makes her stronger: It's more frequently the case that a certain type of cylon ship activation will be extremely detrimental to the human fleet, most notably heavy raiders. Aside from Starbuck, nobody else can virtually guarantee that heavy raiders won't activate.

Thoughts? Counterarguments?
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Darren Nakamura
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downfall wrote:
Second, the three yellow/two green draw becomes a bit more irritating. Without the CFB, not having an XO can be annoying. With it, there are more situations in which not having an XO can be extremely damaging.


I don't really see how this is a fault of Roslin's. A guaranteed 2 Leadership is still more than many of the other characters, and is only beaten by Adama and Cain. I suppose since Roslin is more reliant on XOs than other characters it makes it rough, but she still has as good if not better ability to XO others than most.

As far as whether she's "worth it" or not with the CFB in play, I can't say because I haven't played her with the CFB, but it's pretty well accepted that both Roslin and Boomer are weaker with the CFB.

Personally, I don't like playing as Roslin much anyway, because her drawback is so limiting, so she certainly wouldn't be my favorite character to play as with the CFB either, but then I'd still venture a game or two with her, because I'm not one to pick a favorite and go with it constantly. Others may do that, though.
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Chris Hurd
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Darren pretty much said what I was going to say. But I will add this one point.

downfall wrote:
I really, really like Roslin without the CFB.

As a cylon, the appeal is obvious.

... with the general heuristic that CACs are the worst


Is the appeal obvious? If you apply the criteria of your general heuristic, Roslin is frakkin terrible cylon. Any CAC card she turns over is a soft reveal, at the exact wrong time to soft reveal. The most damage you can do with your vision is to get a bunch of non-jump icon crises, until you're willing to take that final plunge and out yourself as an imposter.

In that regard, I would theorize Roslin becomes more playable with the CFB. She becomes a worse human, for all the reasons you've stated. However, she becomes a better cylon, because she doesn't automatically out herself by making anti-human choices. Having her be a better cylon might actually make her playable, regardless of the other points.

Like Darren, I'll mention that I dislike playing as Roslin, but will probably end up giving it a try now, despite my dislike.
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downfall wrote:
As a human, I'm generally trying to (i) give up the presidency to a player I trust,
... this is actually moreso a "Roslin" thing rather than a "Roslin + CFB" thing, but I think Roslin should hold on to it anyways.

People argue she can't mine the Qdeck as efficiently which is true, but if you're a group that doens't use Qcards much/anyways, then it makes no difference. Otherwise, u have a situation where u have 1 person who's lousy at locations + Qcards and 4 others who are good with locations vs. 1 person who's good at Qcards, but has to divide his time between loc and Qcards (and if he's moving back and forth, XOs won't cut it, so he's really only doing one or another), and 3 other "normal people" plus Roslin who's lousy at locations and has no fallback action if she has no CP nor XOs worth using... Sometimes the latter is better.




downfall wrote:
First, and most obviously, there are no CAC's to bury.
No, but there are "CAG Chooses" (event) crisis cards, and like CAC, those are often never good. In some cases, they're worse if they involve resources or damaging stuff... options that can't be resolved, by simply jumping away. Then there's also the fact that like CAC, "CAG Chooses" cards don't have jump icons on them either, so that's also 1 less, crisis card without a jump icon.

I will acknowledge that there only 6 of them vs. the at least 12 to 13 or CAC from Pegasus, and that's when the crisis deck was shorter and the CAC would've bene more 'concentrated'.

downfall wrote:
Second, the three yellow/two green draw becomes a bit more irritating. Without the CFB, not having an XO can be annoying. With it, there are more situations in which not having an XO can be extremely damaging.
Well, just get CP to draw more green or dive into purple. U can never have too many SP. And 3 yellows are still good for IC, Prev. Pol., and she is among the most likely to get Pol. Prowess just on stats alone. U can always have fun with THAT card cool


downfall wrote:
Third, the situations in which a location such as communications/command need to be activated are substantially much more frequent. In a 5 player game, there will inevitably only be 3 human players after the sleeper phase. Hopefully, one of them is a pilot in space, leaving just two people left. It's too expensive in general for Roslin to activate locations, and she can't feasibly park herself somewhere useful and get XO'd to use it twice.
If she's using her power as opposed to stuck in the Brig, then hopefully she's burying cards without jump icons and bringing up the ones with them. Even if she gets 2 cards without jump icons, the other one is buried, so at least it's 1 less "jumpless" card you'll need to deal with. Hopefully, that'll more than make up for it. Sometimes, it comes down to just 1 jump icon.

downfall wrote:
Fourth, it is no longer the case that jumping early is always good, so her ability to more consistently grab a jump point is less useful.
well then, she can always try to look for a crisis card without a jump icon. Nothing to stop her from that.

downfall wrote:
Thoughts? Counterarguments?
See above
 
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Andy H
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Just also want to remind everyone who plays Roslin of the ability on the president card of just drawing one Quorum card. Sure it's not as effective as presidents office, but it's not terrible when you want to hang on to some good skill cards.
 
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downfall wrote:
Second, the three yellow/two green draw becomes a bit more irritating. Without the CFB, not having an XO can be annoying. With it, there are more situations in which not having an XO can be extremely damaging.


This is the case with ANY character, not just Roslin. And if she doesn't have an XO and the situation is THAT desperate she has just drawn 5 cards so she can still do whatever is so dire that it requires being done NOW. It might feel worse for her, but it's just not THAT much worse.

downfall wrote:
Third, the situations in which a location such as communications/command need to be activated are substantially much more frequent. In a 5 player game, there will inevitably only be 3 human players after the sleeper phase. Hopefully, one of them is a pilot in space, leaving just two people left. It's too expensive in general for Roslin to activate locations, and she can't feasibly park herself somewhere useful and get XO'd to use it twice.


No, but she can pretty reliably be XO'd to Consolidate Power twice turning her hand into whatever the group needs for skill checks. That said, this is still a problem that again is only a little worse for her in CFB than normal, because normally she still has this problem.

downfall wrote:
Fourth, it is no longer the case that jumping early is always good, so her ability to more consistently grab a jump point is less useful.


Her ability isn't to "more consistently grab a jump icon," her ability is to more consistently control the crises. If you need fewer icons, she can just as easily bury one as reveal one. And as you say, she can control fleet types too, in addition to the normal "this crisis might kill us" sorts of things. This actually makes MORE use of her OPT since she has one more criterion to balance.
 
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jsciv wrote:
Her ability isn't to "more consistently grab a jump icon," her ability is to more consistently control the crises. If you need fewer icons, she can just as easily bury one as reveal one. And as you say, she can control fleet types too, in addition to the normal "this crisis might kill us" sorts of things. This actually makes MORE use of her OPT since she has one more criterion to balance.


That's a really good point. If you get into a situation where you'd rather not have a jump icon (i.e. you're one space away from Autojump and the CFB is two spaces away from Autoattack), then you can use Roslin to give a Crisis without jump prep so that the Cylon fleet jumps in just as Galactica is about to jump out, rather than the opposite. That's not to mention that jumpless Crises are (on average) less severe than Crises with jump icons, so it may be the better play all around.
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Dexter345 wrote:
jsciv wrote:
Her ability isn't to "more consistently grab a jump icon," her ability is to more consistently control the crises. If you need fewer icons, she can just as easily bury one as reveal one. And as you say, she can control fleet types too, in addition to the normal "this crisis might kill us" sorts of things. This actually makes MORE use of her OPT since she has one more criterion to balance.


That's a really good point. If you get into a situation where you'd rather not have a jump icon (i.e. you're one space away from Autojump and the CFB is two spaces away from Autoattack), then you can use Roslin to give a Crisis without jump prep so that the Cylon fleet jumps in just as Galactica is about to jump out, rather than the opposite. That's not to mention that jumpless Crises are (on average) less severe than Crises with jump icons, so it may be the better play all around.

Kudos to you if the non-jump crisis is the one that draws a new crisis, since I'm pretty certain that would reset Roslin's visions.

I've always felt the political leaders were a muddled mess and all have high points and low points as far as reliability. I don't think Roslin came out too much worse for wear post-Exodus. Yeah, CFB removes attack cards, but the CAG chooses are universally bad and there are some truly horrendous crises in Exodus that are not CFB dependent. Also, she has at least some ability to game the Cylon Fleet by manipulating in a limited fashion what ship is activating. Certainly feels less terrible than using Ellen to manipulate treachery.
 
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I'm not a big fan of political leaders in general (although I like Tory), but I think Roslyn is fine with the CFB. Her special ability to examine two crisis and choose the one she likes is a very powerful ability whether or not she is a Cylon. The CFB doesn't diminish her ability, as others have already pointed out.
 
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She is definitely worthwhile with the CFB. I would call her different as she can't nullify an entire swarm as she could in the base game, but her searching for jump icons is really key.

I put it this way:

Her looking for jump icons is like 95% of her ability and putting away CAC's, while powerful is only about 5% of what she does. With the CFB, you lose that 5%, but still have the 95%. So she still is definitely viable.
 
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Revelade wrote:
She is definitely worthwhile with the CFB. I would call her different as she can't nullify an entire swarm as she could in the base game, but her searching for jump icons is really key.

I put it this way:

Her looking for jump icons is like 95% of her ability and putting away CAC's, while powerful is only about 5% of what she does. With the CFB, you lose that 5%, but still have the 95%. So she still is definitely viable.


You lose the CAC, but she also gains the potential of manipulating the CFB. For instance, if there are two basestars on the CFB, she can choose a basestar icon to trigger an early arrival of Cylons (unless the CFB is about to jump, then it doesn't matter.).

Some people don't like Exodus for this reason. The ability to manipulate the CFB. But the CFB makes pilots a lot more valuable as cylon ships become a bigger and bigger problem during the course of the game. So besides being able to take out cylon ships, the ability to manipulate the board can be very useful.
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Robert Stewart
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I'd say she's less handicapped with the CFB in play because the President would be getting fewer XOs to work the Quorum anyway - without CFB, Quorum-mining is a good way to spend the jump cycles when there're no Cylon ships on DRADIS; with it, preparing for the next wave is usually more urgent.

She may not be as good at activating locations, but she does make a good spanner-wench (sit on damaged location, get XOed to CP for 2 blues, and Repair if she draws one...)
 
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If nothing else (... I really do use this phrase alot ), She's bound to get Pol. Prowess, drawing 3 yellow. Since she doesn't move much, playing Prev. Policy helps in stemming resource losses. And Iron will can always helpful in keeping Fail effects from activating.

hobbes27 wrote:
Some people don't like Exodus for this reason. The ability to manipulate the CFB. But the CFB makes pilots a lot more valuable as cylon ships become a bigger and bigger problem during the course of the game. So besides being able to take out cylon ships, the ability to manipulate the board can be very useful.
Ironically enough, that's where the CAG Chooses come in handy.... +2 on the Pursuit track via 2 cylon ship icons to Auto-Attack, hold off on Auto-Jumping, THEN jump on the next turn.
 
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