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Subject: Info about "ancestral diets" rss

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Michael Tagge
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This is a spin off from the GMO discussion. SpaceGhost expressed a willingness to look at some of the research and basic info about problems with grains.

SpaceGhost wrote:
mtagge wrote:


I'd love to hear your explanation as to why modern diseases are so prevalent and becoming more so in such a short period of time. Lack of exercise fails the sniff test as does calories in calories out, especially as people eat closer and closer to the USDA's food guide (keep in mind that is the US Department of Agriculture whose mission is to promote US Agra, not provide sound nutrition advice). Step up to the plate and come up with an alternate theory.

While the claims are costly to prove in one fell swoop on a scientifically valid study, they are hardly wild. The research is out there that wheat (especially the gluten content) and soy (and how it affects fertility and estrogen levels) are really bad for you. The research is out there that lectins and phytates (found all over the place in grains and to a smaller degree in legumes) prevent the absorption of nutrients to the point where Americans get deficiency diseases for nutrients. The research clearly points to a strong connection with auto-immune diseases (too many to list) and celiac disease. The research is clear that celiac responses are more common than diagnosed. The research is clear that high carbohydrate grains are bad for you as to the part they play in the insulin response system in the body. The research shows that fortifying foodstuff with minerals does an excellent job of preventing deficiency diseases, but does a poor job of ensuring good health and often causes overdosing issues. The research shows that carbohydrates are not the appropriate main calorie source for non-athletes.


OK, I am game. Can you get me started by answering the following:

1) What diseases do you mean when you say "modern diseases" are prevalent?

2) I would love to read any research that has appeared in peer-reviewed journals. Can you provide links? It seems like you are well-versed in the literature.

I am open to be educated about this.


1) When I say modern diseases I am talking about obesity, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and neuro-degeneration.

2) The list I put up of topics is pretty long. Is there anything in particular you are interested in? For a starting point I suggest this paper (http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Cerealgra...). This is not peer reviewed, but speaks to the problems with detecting gluten intolerance (https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/EarlyDiagnosis.aspx). And just to round out with a third gluten sensitivity is shown in about 10% of individuals (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/9/23).

It is possible that I am mistaken on this, but my mother has thyroid issues, my wife has them, and my son has shown intolerance to grains so we just avoid them completely.

Just food for thought this is an good read to get any discussion started:

Gary Taubes: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-...

Note, I am not a researcher or connected with any institution, so most of my info comes from a few sources, Mark's Daily Apple (good intro to paleo and a mild approach to it http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-primal-bluep...) Robb Wolf (ex-research biologist http://robbwolf.com/what-is-the-paleo-diet/), and Chris Kresser (a practicing MD http://chriskresser.com/)
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Quote:
Lack of exercise fails the sniff test as does calories in calories out...


I am curious to this statement also. Why does it fail the sniff test? Using the paleo-diet logic, hunter-gatherers presumably led more active lifestyles and consumed less calories depending on availability. It would seem that not only had we evolved on a certain diet, we also evolved on a certain pattern of activity and caloric intake. To ignore those variables is to ignore the whole Paleo experience.
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I believe we humans should be eating mainly animal protein and vegetables. I for one prefer these things to starches and sugars. Give me some extra steak and asparagus instead of dessert!

There's really no excuse for the booze though.
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Boaty McBoatface
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There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


What?
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DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


What?


My guess is that he was speaking with his mouth full of Bison meat.
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chaendlmaier wrote:

Milk and potatoes is all you need. These two form a complete diet.

Nope. http://www.livestrong.com/article/282286-milk-potato-diet/


...He concluded that eating eight pounds of potatoes and drinking one gallon of milk daily would provide all of the essential nutrients for an average size young man, with one exception. The exception is molybdenum. Without molybdenum, you will eventually lapse into a coma.
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chaendlmaier wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
chaendlmaier wrote:

Milk and potatoes is all you need. These two form a complete diet.

Nope. http://www.livestrong.com/article/282286-milk-potato-diet/


...He concluded that eating eight pounds of potatoes and drinking one gallon of milk daily would provide all of the essential nutrients for an average size young man, with one exception. The exception is molybdenum. Without molybdenum, you will eventually lapse into a coma.

Hmm, the Irish must have kept something secret from us.

Same article. They ate oats.
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Jon M
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The bulk of our diet since the start of agriculture nearly ten thousand years ago has come from grains. Any recent changes in disease patterns are not due to eating grains.

A better candidate is refined sugar. It has not been widely available throughout history and only cheaply available in the last 100 years or so. Sugar intakes have increased massively - especially highly processed corn syrups and the like.
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Quote:
1) When I say modern diseases I am talking about obesity, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and neuro-degeneration.


Going to a near-vegan diet can minimize or eliminate most of those, particularly cardiovascular problems. I don't have any scholarly articles but I would recommend searching on Caldwell Esselstyn. Found a decent summary here:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/news_info.htm

If (like me) you want the simple version you can watch the documentary Forks Over Knives.

(I suspect the real answer is not so simple and varies per person, but that seems to work for some people.)
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mtagge wrote:
This is a spin off from the GMO discussion. SpaceGhost expressed a willingness to look at some of the research and basic info about problems with grains.

SpaceGhost wrote:
mtagge wrote:


I'd love to hear your explanation as to why modern diseases are so prevalent and becoming more so in such a short period of time. Lack of exercise fails the sniff test as does calories in calories out, especially as people eat closer and closer to the USDA's food guide (keep in mind that is the US Department of Agriculture whose mission is to promote US Agra, not provide sound nutrition advice). Step up to the plate and come up with an alternate theory.

While the claims are costly to prove in one fell swoop on a scientifically valid study, they are hardly wild. The research is out there that wheat (especially the gluten content) and soy (and how it affects fertility and estrogen levels) are really bad for you. The research is out there that lectins and phytates (found all over the place in grains and to a smaller degree in legumes) prevent the absorption of nutrients to the point where Americans get deficiency diseases for nutrients. The research clearly points to a strong connection with auto-immune diseases (too many to list) and celiac disease. The research is clear that celiac responses are more common than diagnosed. The research is clear that high carbohydrate grains are bad for you as to the part they play in the insulin response system in the body. The research shows that fortifying foodstuff with minerals does an excellent job of preventing deficiency diseases, but does a poor job of ensuring good health and often causes overdosing issues. The research shows that carbohydrates are not the appropriate main calorie source for non-athletes.


OK, I am game. Can you get me started by answering the following:

1) What diseases do you mean when you say "modern diseases" are prevalent?

2) I would love to read any research that has appeared in peer-reviewed journals. Can you provide links? It seems like you are well-versed in the literature.

I am open to be educated about this.


1) When I say modern diseases I am talking about obesity, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and neuro-degeneration.

2) The list I put up of topics is pretty long. Is there anything in particular you are interested in? For a starting point I suggest this paper (http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Cerealgra...). This is not peer reviewed, but speaks to the problems with detecting gluten intolerance (https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/EarlyDiagnosis.aspx). And just to round out with a third gluten sensitivity is shown in about 10% of individuals (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/9/23).

It is possible that I am mistaken on this, but my mother has thyroid issues, my wife has them, and my son has shown intolerance to grains so we just avoid them completely.

Just food for thought this is an good read to get any discussion started:

Gary Taubes: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-...

Note, I am not a researcher or connected with any institution, so most of my info comes from a few sources, Mark's Daily Apple (good intro to paleo and a mild approach to it http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-primal-bluep...) Robb Wolf (ex-research biologist http://robbwolf.com/what-is-the-paleo-diet/), and Chris Kresser (a practicing MD http://chriskresser.com/)


Michael -

I will read this when I get a chance. I would say the real culprit is refined sugar, not grains.

Also, do you know your specific ancestry? I have read some studies that indicate different ancestries might be more genetically tolerant to grains (Northern European) versus others (Southern European). In any event, I imagine there are numerous individual differences.

My counter question would be, if this is such an obvious issue, why doesn't it appear more widely in medical journals. It is hard for me to believe that a few people promoting specific diets have uncovered something that the entire medical community has missed for decades (although possible).

For the record, I am like Jarred - much prefer just an extra serving of meat and vegetables than dessert.



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slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.
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Psauberer wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.

I admit he has even more typos in his posts than I do, but he's not that illegible, people. Cut the guy some slack.
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whac3 wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.

I admit he has even more typos in his posts than I do, but he's not that illegible, people. Cut the guy some slack.


I wonder if he's just suffering from a bad case of evidacne. If that's so then maybe Moshe is right and we should exhibit compassion rather than ridicule.

Can someone direct me to some articles on how to exhibit compassion? Thanks.
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whac3 wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.

I admit he has even more typos in his posts than I do, but he's not that illegible, people. Cut the guy some slack.


It is a question of respect for those you are engaging in dialogue with. Obvious typos bespeak a lack of respect.
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SpaceGhost wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.

I admit he has even more typos in his posts than I do, but he's not that illegible, people. Cut the guy some slack.


It is a question of respect for those you are engaging in dialogue with. Obvious typos belay a lack of respect.


Weill in thar case...
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SpaceGhost wrote:
Obvious typos belay a lack of respect.

What does using a totally inappropriate word 'belay'?
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SpaceGhost wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.


Can you at least make an effort to make your posts readable? The extra two seconds to edit the post would really help elevate conversation.


Whenever I read a slatersteven post the voice in my mind is Officer Crabtree speaking French.

I admit he has even more typos in his posts than I do, but he's not that illegible, people. Cut the guy some slack.


It is a question of respect for those you are engaging in dialogue with. Obvious typos belay a lack of respect.

I don't see it that way but see your point.
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damiangerous wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
Obvious typos belay a lack of respect.

What does using a totally inappropriate word 'belay'?


And do totally inobviuos typos belay an outright insulting attitude, or just playful sarcasm?
 
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Michael Tagge
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chaendlmaier wrote:
But humanity has been eating grains for thousands of years, at times in even larger quantities than today. Why are grains to blame for the "modern" diseases?
Until the 1970's when the low fat advice proliferated we were eating a much lower percent of calories from grains. If you consider that now we are eating soybean and corn oils, some Westerners now can get 80%+ of our calories from grains.
SpaceGhost wrote:
Michael -

I will read this when I get a chance. I would say the real culprit is refined sugar, not grains.

Also, do you know your specific ancestry? I have read some studies that indicate different ancestries might be more genetically tolerant to grains (Northern European) versus others (Southern European). In any event, I imagine there are numerous individual differences.

My counter question would be, if this is such an obvious issue, why doesn't it appear more widely in medical journals. It is hard for me to believe that a few people promoting specific diets have uncovered something that the entire medical community has missed for decades (although possible).

For the record, I am like Jarred - much prefer just an extra serving of meat and vegetables than dessert.
What is the difference between sugar and bread? They are both the same macro-nutrient (carbs with a little protein for the grains). The body responds to both of them in the same way releasing insulin to deal with the rush of carbohydrates.

For the counter question, Gary Taubes covers that in his editorial post including the entire medical community working with limited information in what they view as the best interests of their patients. I do think that the USDA and those organizations setup to promote low fat diets have behaved in unethical ways though.

Here is my attempt at a layman's explanation (and this will be simplified): Your body runs on two types of fuels, glucose (carbs) or ketones (fats). If the bulk of your calories come from carbs and you never fast or do long term cardio, you will never switch over to a ketogenic state and burn your body's fat stores. In addition if you are constantly eating carbs and your body has to release insulin to manage it (either shuttle it to the muscles if glucose stores are depleted or send it to the liver for processing to turn into body fat), being constantly awash in insulin causes the body to adapt and become pre-diabetic and eventually diabetic. Additionally your muscles are suited to burn glucose for cardio type exercise but ketones for slow burning exercise this creates a problem with long term cardio as your body is not designed to burn glucose constantly.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.
There are some theories that Europeans have evolved since the agricultural revolution to handle dairy, whereas other populations have not.
 
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mtagge wrote:


1) When I say modern diseases I am talking about obesity, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and neuro-degeneration.



i.e. the diseases of old-age or affluence that few would have had a chance to acquire pre the early 20th century.
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Anonymouse512 wrote:
Quote:
1) When I say modern diseases I am talking about obesity, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, cancer, auto-immune diseases, and neuro-degeneration.


Going to a near-vegan diet can minimize or eliminate most of those, particularly cardiovascular problems. I don't have any scholarly articles but I would recommend searching on Caldwell Esselstyn. Found a decent summary here:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/news_info.htm

If (like me) you want the simple version you can watch the documentary Forks Over Knives.

(I suspect the real answer is not so simple and varies per person, but that seems to work for some people.)
The problem with any study that takes into account food intake is the methodology is far too flawed to be useful. The food surveys ask folks how many times they ate what type of food up to three weeks after the fact so they are not accurate on that account. They then do not take into account proper controls to ensure survey participants are not fudged. Lastly they completely discount the girl scout effect (namely that people who are trying to reduce cardiac events are following all the recommendations including exercise, taking drugs, etc). Basically a scientifically valid study would be so restrictive on the subjects that it would be impossible.

It might be that different people have better ideal balances between fats/carbs/proteins, but the current dogma of no fat high carb is proving to be disastrous in the US.
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chaendlmaier wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
There is some evidacne that we have evolved along sode our food. That we in fact may ot be able to survive on he diet our distant ancestors ate.

What?

"There is some evidence that we have evolved alongside our food, that we in fact may not be able to survive on the diet our distant ancestors ate."

jarredscott78 wrote:
I believe we humans should be eating mainly animal protein and vegetables. I for one prefer these things to starches and sugars. Give me some extra steak and asparagus instead of dessert!

Milk and potatoes is all you need. These two form a complete diet.

As to the taste and nutritional value of meat, that is debatable. I regularly feel like throwing up when I pass the meat section in our local super market. I guess it comes from growing up next to a slaughterhouse, which occasionally left cow heads lying out on the street. Nutritionally meat alone is very special, particularly cooked, but organs and oils provide some benefits.

- - -

Edit: Combined double-post.


Milk will make you miserable if you are one of the millions who are lactose intolerant or allergic to milk.
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