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Subject: gripes about current kickstart trends. rss

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joel siragher
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not sure this is the right area to post this... But im really disturbed about this. I just looked over the kickstarts for gaming.


xxx wrote:
runescience wrote:
But I also wish that projects that got over over funded like the xxxx game and xxx would give back some of the money.




If they give back the overage, how will they produce the goods for all the backers?


This is not directed at all kickstart projects. I beleive that kickstarting is a great way to do what you need to do to get your stuff out there.



there's a law of supply and demand that says something like: the more you make the lower the cost. If im going to make a professional quality prototype of one, that thing is going to probably cost maybe 200 dollars. But, if I make 5000 it may cost 15 to make. Then if the final tag is 60 10% goes to the distributor and 35% goes to reseller.

In the current trend of popular crowd base kickstart, these companies that are kickstarting are starting to put your hard earned money into other things besides what you are kickstarting, like promising expansions that may or may never come to fruition, all sorts of nattie stuff that is up a stretch goals.



I want them to make money, but when people start putting in bogus stretches like... I don't want to go through it again... Ive said it else where... it makes me feel like maybe I shouldn't have supported future warner brother cartoon business decisions. Here's my money, show some integrity. You want to get your game funded? good. Im glad. more power to you. but don't give us sham stretch goals.

HEY! i just made a mint on my kick start... i did it buy promising a signed plastic flower at 97,000 dollars. Its going to be a great game. True, but if i keep promising the suckers more swag, they will keep funding.

Maybe we need to be smart buyers.

Maybe I have a lot of grips on the subject.

Maybe they should give back the overage in the form of real improved components, instead of offering the ability to buy a shirt at a higher level which by the way is the biggest insult to me as a consumer.

Im done.
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J J
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It's called economy of scale, and it doesn't work how you seem to think it works.

Anyway - what does it matter what the extra money they raised is spent on so long as you got what you paid for? Do you complain about any other business making more money than is strictly needed to produce their product and pay wages and then using that excess as they see fit? Cos that's the thing - they may be making a hobby game, but they are still a business, just like any other.
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joel siragher
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JasonJ0 wrote:
It's called economy of scale, and it doesn't work how you seem to think it works.

Anyway - what does it matter what the extra money they raised is spent on so long as you got what you paid for? Do you complain about any other business making more money than is strictly needed to produce their product and pay wages and then using that excess as they seem fit? Cos that's the thing - they may be making a hobby game, but they are still a business, just like any other.


let me see if i can clarify my point.

I dont have a problem paying for a game @ 50-60 bucks. Note that kick start has hatched quite a few beauts. Air and steam for one( i hope its good), and im too tired to name others. I also dont have a problem with these guys making money. What I object to is bogus stretch goals, and nonsense fringe benefits. i feel very strongly about this.

funding a project is like sharing in a public trust, do you get me?
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Derry Salewski
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You need to be specific. I haven't seen successful projects with bogus stretch goals.

I can't remember having seen a project that required anyone to buy the game as well as other non-game-related 'fringe' goods to receive the game.

Why would funding a project be like a public trust? It's fairly clear that it's . . . funding a project. If what you get (Happiness, boardgames, teeshirts, etc.) is worth the pledge, you pledge.

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Dale Moore
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I have my own issues. So you want to start a Kickstarter campaign. Here's what you need to get me.

But I don't get your issue. You admit yourr tired so get some rest then reply.

First most printers is not going to do a print run of 300 games. Just because a project made Goal and stretch goals does not mean they made a dime.

I'm friends with a designer that had a successful run on kickstarter. Streach goals really isn't about trying to get you to invest more money. It about you getting the word of mouth going and drumming up more investers.

Especially for the ones that are self publishing. They are looking at getting 2000 copies of a game made. Are heavily invested themselves and have a hard time coming up with stretch goals that wont breack the bank or change the game.

Its not much different. with the games backed by a small publisher.

Typed on kindle fire. Forgive typos.
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I think there is no question that many Kickstarter campaigns under deliver on their promises. Especially in terms of timing (be the first to own this game!), price (this game will never be cheaper!) or "exclusive" promos that never seem to be exclusive. But once they have your money there is nothing you can do about it. Unfortunately, some people will say just about anything to get people to fund a project.

There seems to be a new culture on BGG to fund Kickstarter projects that people would never normally preorder through the companies website. It's similar to the "ebay" effect where people overbid just to win. I guess there is a strong desire to be part of the project- even given the exaggerations and sometimes outright lies by the project leads.
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runescience wrote:
Maybe we need to be smart buyers.


Indeed, we do!

KS is *not* a pre-order. It's a way to raise capital for a project, and projects, even those with the best intentions, can fail. After following tech stocks for the last 20+ years, I can safely say that good management is *more* important than a good product. And I'm a little uncomfortable at how few KS projects I've peeked at tell you about the company and people behind the product. OTOH, I don't think I'm alone at this -- established companies like Steve Jackson Games have made much more money on their KS than "indie" projects, implying that investors look for companies with track records.

Read:
http://www.pocketables.com/2011/11/what-happens-when-people-...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/831303939/hanfree-ipad-a...
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Tim
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I don't see the problem either. These folks should be allowed to make money. Just because they're doing it relatively risk-free (getting their capital up front) doesn't mean they have any less right to earn money than anyone else. It's just a new way of doing business. Lots of Internet companies have started out virtually risk free (if the talent are also the dreamers).

As for the stretch goals, I don't think they're designed to suck more money out of the current backers, I think they're usually trying to entice people who are on the fence. It seems most of the projects I've seen reward those same stretch goals to current backers at their current levels. I *think* I get what your underlying complaint is, and it's more about adding new supporter levels. You sign up at $60 and then they announce that if you pledge $75 you'll get some other cool wizbang that you just have to have. That, I would agree is more annoying, and would seem to be trying to pry more money out of your pocket. I would probably walk away from any project that did something like that.
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Dale Moore
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Luckily because of Bgg we have a slight edge backing games than we would on other subjects. First thing I look at is if the game designer is a new User.

Sam and Max wrote:
runescience wrote:
Maybe we need to be smart buyers.


Indeed, we do!

KS is *not* a pre-order. It's a way to raise capital for a project, and projects, even those with the best intentions, can fail. After following tech stocks for the last 20+ years, I can safely say that good management is *more* important than a good product. And I'm a little uncomfortable at how few KS projects I've peeked at tell you about the company and people behind the product. OTOH, I don't think I'm alone at this -- established companies like Steve Jackson Games have made much more money on their KS than "indie" projects, implying that investors look for companies with track records.

Read:
http://www.pocketables.com/2011/11/what-happens-when-people-...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/831303939/hanfree-ipad-a...
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Tim
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Sam and Max wrote:

KS is *not* a pre-order. It's a way to raise capital for a project, and projects, even those with the best intentions, can fail.


I don't want to derail the conversation (but I'm going to anyways! ) Kickstarter is not an investment. If it were an investment I'd be getting a cut of sales/company/and perhaps future games. But I'm not. I'm getting a game, with no future or expected valuation. Kickstarter was intended to be used as a way to fund projects, mostly indie films and such, but the board game community has adopted it as a pre-order system, much in the way Flickr was originally designed a site for video game players to upload their in-game screenshots, but it grew beyond what the creators had envisioned for it. Kickstarter has embraced this to an extent, because they would be stupid to turn away potentially huge revenue streams just because it didn't fit their original concept.

Kickstarter was created to be a way to fund projects. That is not the way we use it, therefore that is no longer what it is (in regards to board games).
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Peter Chilton
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Sam and Max wrote:

Thanks for the links, both very interesting reads.
 
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scifiantihero wrote:
You need to be specific. I haven't seen successful projects with bogus stretch goals.


He's talking about Ogre, where some of the stretch goals were things like "We will make an expansion" and "I will go to conventions" and "I will do another Kickstarter next year for something completely unrelated"

It's so much whining about "extra profit margin" on a product that is severely underpriced as it is.
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Kenny VenOsdel
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Quote:
Maybe we need to be smart buyers.


This is the only point you made that I agree with. If you don't like the stretch goals then don't back it. I'm not a fan of silly stretch goals either. I have no need for a t-shirt or anything like that. If I back a project it's for the base reward of that project. If it needs a stretch goal to get me to back then I won't do it.
 
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kvenosdel wrote:
Quote:
Maybe we need to be smart buyers.


This is the only point you made that I agree with. If you don't like the stretch goals then don't back it. I'm not a fan of silly stretch goals either. I have no need for a t-shirt or anything like that. If I back a project it's for the base reward of that project. If it needs a stretch goal to get me to back then I won't do it.

Sure, some of the stretch goals for the Ogre KS were silly, like the T-shirt or the "go to conventions" goals, but some were great, like the extra counter sheets or map improvements. And while it may be silly to have a stretch goal about an unrelated game, if it gets Car Wars re-released, I don't care.
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joel siragher
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I am not talking about an investment were you get money back out of a product, I mean there is a good will investment hoping that the product publisher acts responsibly.

And no im not singling out any particular game starter.


You know I wanted to make it to 10k funding so I could produce the game myself. So, since it sold so well, why dont I take it around and try to publish it as a regular game? Sure its easier to get crowd based $$$ then I dont have to be as responsible as if i were to bank roll it myself.

I dont think any one in our community is going to raise 10K and go to hawaii on the $$$.

But, whats is crossing the line?

Act with integrity. Be a mensch.

Its my gripe - Im entitled to be cranky. I think im completely vented on the subject. Sorry If I offended any one.

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runescience wrote:
i feel very strongly about this.

Feeling very strongly about something, and having no idea about the facts often go hand in hand.
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Adam Kazimierczak
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I'll rag on Kickstarter as soon as the next guy, but I see some of the economy going on and especially for new publishers Kickstarter is just that: a kick start. $10000 is NOT enough to publish most games. Sure you can pay your artist and graphic designer and maybe get a token payment for 100's of hours of leg work but you'll still need more money to do a decent sized print run and get to the conventions, etc. And the clock is ticking the minute your backers pay up.

I thought of kickstarting my own game in development but will probably go a more traditional route because I just don't think I have it in me to be a Twittering, Facebooking, advertising fiend for the extent of a Kickstarter campaign and maintain a hype engine of that magnitude. I may change my mind, but unless you're an established publisher Kickstarter rewards the project with the most upfront bling and that means getting professional art and design ahead of time, BEFORE you have any funds.

Most Kickstarters fail. I dislike deceptive marketing for bad product, but with the glut of product out there I think that finite backer funds are weeding that out already to some extent.
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Brian Schroth
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Sam and Max wrote:


This guy should look into funding that innovative "Paragraphs" project on kickstarter.
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joel siragher
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Aldaron wrote:
runescience wrote:
i feel very strongly about this.

Feeling very strongly about something, and having no idea about the facts often go hand in hand.



Misquoting is a great way to misrepresent an opinion. The whole quote was:

What I object to is bogus stretch goals, and nonsense fringe benefits. I feel very strongly about this.

But it was a good try. Im guessing you work for a major news outlet?

Aldaron? Just curious, What facts do you think im missing?
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Aldaron wrote:
runescience wrote:
i feel very strongly about this.

Feeling very strongly about something, and having no idea about the facts often go hand in hand.


All potential relevance or merit to this conversation aside, cheers to you for nailing a very poignant sentiment.
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BagelManB wrote:
Sam and Max wrote:


This guy should look into funding that innovative "Paragraphs" project on kickstarter.


Yup.

Paragraphs are your friend.
 
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runescience wrote:


What I object to is bogus stretch goals, and nonsense fringe benefits. I feel very strongly about this.


I still don't understand what you think "bogus stretch goals" and "nonsense benefits" are. Or, for that matter, what the problem is. If someone chooses to spend Y amount of money rather than X amount, because they want the extra benefit, how is that a problem for them, you, or anyone else?

You may have strong feelings about something, but you've not really communicate what, or why.
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Philip
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I believe endless string of Ogre goals were in response to the overwhelming support that it generated. He could have simply not done any stretch goals and pocketed a pile of that money, and instead he realized he could use this extra cash to add more to the game, more swag, etc. He was literally sending out surveys to all of us every other day how we wanted this or that, etc.

I think it's a great vehicle to get games either to that next level of quality that publishers really are unsure of doing, or to get a game published that might not have in the first place. You will have your Glory to Romes, but if you look at even that, the finished product looks incredible, even if it is a year(?) late. I missed out on that, but I'll hopefully be able to find a copy in July.
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runescience wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
runescience wrote:
i feel very strongly about this.

Feeling very strongly about something, and having no idea about the facts often go hand in hand.



Misquoting is a great way to misrepresent an opinion. The whole quote was:

What I object to is bogus stretch goals, and nonsense fringe benefits. I feel very strongly about this.

But it was a good try. Im guessing you work for a major news outlet?

Aldaron? Just curious, What facts do you think im missing?


Here's one for you...

How about the fact that I as a consumer, have the right to choose what I spend my money on? When I put my money down on a product, I've decided its worth it. I'm not being railroaded. I don't have to buy anything. I have more choices than I know what to do with.

You should choose something else to feel strongly about. There are much better causes.
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Sam and Max wrote:


what is it about people named Seth?
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