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Subject: Where will FFG be taking this? (Speculation Request) rss

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Enon Sci
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Regarding expansions, which I believe are supposed to come in monthly installments, we've discussed the possibility of trace making a later appearance (assuming it's not already in the box). However, I got to thinking and it dawned on me that the vast majority of the cards coming down the pique will have to be new.

With around 600 cards in the original Netrunner line, and at least 120 non-duplicates being included in the core set (i.e. I don't believe all the 252 cards in the core set will be original), that leaves less than 7~9 adventure packs until FFG exhausts the original ideas they wish to carry over (for reference, the Lord of the Rings LCG is at 15 adventure packs now). That gives FFG close to a year to a year and a half of original content, but every LCG has run at least this length by now (and with little sign of abating).

By the second year, most of the cards will be new. Do we even know who will be designing these?
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Trent Hamm
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I'm really not worried about it. There were so many unexplored areas and mechanics in the original set + Proteus + Classic that they could just explore those and have enough material for years of sets.

I would expect, though, that there will be some new mechanics along the way.

Given FFG's track record for making lots of interesting and relatively well-balanced cards for CoC, AGoT, and W:I, I think they'll be fine.
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Enon Sci
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trenttsd wrote:
I'm really not worried about it. There were so many unexplored areas and mechanics in the original set + Proteus + Classic that they could just explore those and have enough material for years of sets.

I would expect, though, that there will be some new mechanics along the way.

Given FFG's track record for making lots of interesting and relatively well-balanced cards for CoC, AGoT, and W:I, I think they'll be fine.


To be fair, I'm less worried and more just enjoying the speculation (any Netrunner discussion that's not an acrimonious back and forth about business models is a plus to me!).

If you don't mind me asking, what unexplored mechanics and areas are you referring to? Do you mean ideas that a handful of cards touched on but could be explored greater? Can you share a few examples (no need to be exhaustive)?

I'm just curious in what ways this game might evolve. I'll be happily along for the ride regardless.
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Robbie M.
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2 examples off the top of my head that were introduced in the Classic expansion were Deflector Ice, which allowed the corp to change which fort was being run, and Double Ops/Preps, which had powerful effects but cost 2 actions instead of 1. Also we know that there is advancable ice now, this is a new concept as far as I know.

Edit: Also your math seems wrong. I'm guessing the APs will have 20 different cards at three copies each. Of the 580 cards, subtract 120 for the core and you easily have enough left over for 3 complete AP cycles and a deluxe set. This means nothing though as I have no idea how many of those will never make the transition. I dont really expect to see every card reproduced in some form although I would like it if they did.
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Richard Linnell
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Also, we know that with the new factions, they'll have even more design room. You could essentially have the same card effect at different costs for different factions. I think they'll also create some room to expand into a multi-player format, although just for casual play. I think another concept in the expansions that was only briefly touched on were the Daemons - programs which held and utilized other programs. There were only a few cards in the game that required either player to spend agenda points, but gave extremely powerful effects, so we could see more of that. Mostly I would look for mechanics and new design direction that more closely ties Netrunner to the Android universe.

It may be jumping the shark, but they could also take it into the "shadowrun" direction by adding more keywords and mechanics which focus on the meatbody side of cyberpunk criminal enterprises.
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Jesse W.
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solidhavok wrote:
It may be jumping the shark, but they could also take it into the "shadowrun" direction by adding more keywords and mechanics which focus on the meatbody side of cyberpunk criminal enterprises.


I think that's what Infiltration is for.
 
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BDSb wrote:
solidhavok wrote:
It may be jumping the shark, but they could also take it into the "shadowrun" direction by adding more keywords and mechanics which focus on the meatbody side of cyberpunk criminal enterprises.


I think that's what Infiltration is for.


To clarify, he's referring to Android: Infiltration, a forthcoming push-your-luck heist-themed Android-universe game designed by Donald X. "Yeah the Dominion Guy" Vaccarino.
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Enon Sci
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Asmor wrote:
BDSb wrote:
solidhavok wrote:
It may be jumping the shark, but they could also take it into the "shadowrun" direction by adding more keywords and mechanics which focus on the meatbody side of cyberpunk criminal enterprises.


I think that's what Infiltration is for.


To clarify, he's referring to Android: Infiltration, a forthcoming push-your-luck heist-themed Android-universe game designed by Donald X. "Yeah the Dominion Guy" Vaccarino.

Regardless, nothing says Netrunner couldn't touch on similar thematic territory. It's not like their game play is anywhere close to similar.

Still, I hope you're right as it would paint a wonderful and expansive legacy for Infiltration, a title I hope does well (and generates many expansions).
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David Boeren
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"Where will FFG be taking this?"

Straight to the bank, my friend. Straight to the bank.
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Jake Di Toro
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Anarchosyn wrote:
With around 600 cards in the original Netrunner line, and at least 120 non-duplicates being included in the core set (i.e. I don't believe all the 252 cards in the core set will be original), that leaves less than 7~9 adventure packs until FFG exhausts the original ideas they wish to carry over


While I'l agree with your numbers for cards in the core, you're off a bit on the "Hack Packs" (wildly speculating the name there).

There's only 20 unique cards in a Hack Pack. So that's closer to 24 months possibility of refurb cards.

Edit: damnit, I swear I didn't see the comment from roborob above... sigh.
 
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Enon Sci
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karrde wrote:


There's only 20 unique cards in a Hack Pack. So that's closer to 24 months possibility of refurb cards.

Edit: damnit, I swear I didn't see the comment from roborob above... sigh.


I thought the packs for these usually carried 60 uniques? Oh well, live and learn. It's actually better the way you've described it.
 
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Andy Mills
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The idea is that if you buy the monthly packs, you'll have a full playset of every card in the game (do NOT even attempt to turn this into a Core Set x3 discussion. DO NOT.)
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Enon Sci
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manydills wrote:
The idea is that if you buy the monthly packs, you'll have a full playset of every card in the game (do NOT even attempt to turn this into a Core Set x3 discussion. DO NOT.)


I could play this Highlander style or not, I'm pretty indifferent to that argument. However FFG wants to do it is how they're going to do it; I just wanted to be clear on exactly what that method was.
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manydills wrote:
The idea is that if you buy the monthly packs, you'll have a full playset of every card in the game (do NOT even attempt to turn this into a Core Set x3 discussion. DO NOT.)


You mean like the five page long flame war on the subject in the FFG forums?

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Andy Mills
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etherton wrote:

You mean like the five page long flame war on the subject in the FFG forums?

devil


Which forum do you mean? The Netrunner forum, the AGoT forum, the LoTR forum, or each of those games' corresponding forum on BoardGameGeek?
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Enon Sci
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manydills wrote:
etherton wrote:

You mean like the five page long flame war on the subject in the FFG forums?

devil


Which forum do you mean? The Netrunner forum, the AGoT forum, the LoTR forum, or each of those games' corresponding forum on BoardGameGeek?
robot


He means the Android: Netrunner forum over at FFG.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_temas.asp?efid=...

eDit: Ooooh (*his tired and feeble pre-coffee brain exclaims*), I see what you're doing there.

Just call me Captain Slow.
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Andy Mills
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It would be unsporting to hold anyone responsible for anything they say before they have coffee.
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Adam Deverell
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Quote:
The idea is that if you buy the monthly packs, you'll have a full playset of every card in the game (do NOT even attempt to turn this into a Core Set x3 discussion. DO NOT.)


Glad you said this, because that's exactly what I was going to ask! I'm a lousy collector who almost never buys expansions, feels little need to be a completist and also finds it inconceivable I'd have to buy TWO sets of the same game. But that's what LCG friends of mine do.

But I won't ask. I'll just get the base set x1 and be happy with that.

 
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Enon Sci
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red_gamster wrote:
Quote:
The idea is that if you buy the monthly packs, you'll have a full playset of every card in the game (do NOT even attempt to turn this into a Core Set x3 discussion. DO NOT.)


Glad you said this, because that's exactly what I was going to ask! I'm a lousy collector who almost never buys expansions, feels little need to be a completist and also finds it inconceivable I'd have to buy TWO sets of the same game. But that's what LCG friends of mine do.

But I won't ask. I'll just get the base set x1 and be happy with that.



Unless the set is a x1 set, which seems unlikely, just take the card ratios as hard limitations on the game. Sure, it would be nice to have 3x Powerful Card X, but just like Race for the Galaxy only has one of each six point buildings, take these limitations as balancing mechanisms.

Honestly, we have to know more about the included cards (and play a few games) before this kind of conversation could be meaningfully had. Oh, and I know many friends who make due with just a core set (and perhaps not even expansions) -- games are about limitation, after all. To make due, however, they play the core sets like they would a two player board game (i.e. only one of the two players owns the game and they deck build for non-owners). If you want to play competitively against strangers with their own cards, then this might become more of an issue (but, again, maybe not for Netrunner thanks to the bluffing emphasis).
 
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Andy Mills
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Anarchosyn wrote:

Honestly, we have to know more about the included cards (and play a few games) before this kind of conversation could be meaningfully had.


I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm sure this stems from the fact that I'm beyond tired of Core Set distribution discussions rather than anything you've said specifically, so please forgive me if this comes across as horribly unfriendly:

The Core Set distribution discussion either (a): has been meaningfully had at least six times before now or (b): can not be meaningfully had since FFG has already made their decision and will NEVER release a "top-up" pack.

So, so very tired of this discussion, hence my admonition in my earlier post.
 
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Enon Sci
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manydills wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

Honestly, we have to know more about the included cards (and play a few games) before this kind of conversation could be meaningfully had.


I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm sure this stems from the fact that I'm beyond tired of Core Set distribution discussions rather than anything you've said specifically, so please forgive me if this comes across as horribly unfriendly:

The Core Set distribution discussion either (a): has been meaningfully had at least six times before now or (b): can not be meaningfully had since FFG has already made their decision and will NEVER release a "top-up" pack.

So, so very tired of this discussion, hence my admonition in my earlier post.


Fair enough. Just be aware that you brought this into the conversation and every one of my replies to it has been on the order of "I really don't care, we'll discuss it later."

My usage of "meaningful" in the above quoted passage was shorthand for what I had hoped was obvious: we can't discuss whether having only a single copy of Card X is problematic till we understand Card X's function and whether the lack of two additional copies would be detrimental to fundamental strategy. If you reread all the official press released for the game, we're not even sure FFG is implementing a x3 limitation in deck establishment, nor do we official understand how the faction system will work.

However, unlike you, I don't mind seeing people civilly discuss this subject. My only objection to seeing these discussions in the immediate is the intense lack of information available on which to form a contextually meaningful argument.

If you dislike this subject, stop evoking what you don't want to read. My position in this thread has been to not give a tinkered cuss about whether I get X3 of every card. I just want a game that is playable out of the box, and I have no reason to think FFG won't be providing that (all past games have been playable out of the box with only a core set, at least for casual players like myself).
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Nathan Bredfeldt
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Wait. There are factions? I suppose they are from the Android universe, then? I guess I can kind of understand corporate factions. Different types of corporations and whatnot. I have a much harder time seeing runner factions because I imagine the runner as a lone wolf type character. Plus limiting cards based on a faction just seems weird. Why would a corp or especially a runner limit themselves on what tech/programs/ideas they could use just based on a random affiliation?

I also had the same problem with Lord of the Rings. "I, Gloin, would like to aquire a Dwarven Axe."
"No can do, wrong kind of influence."
"Perhaps my friend Dain could put in a good word for me?"
"Won't help. Would you be willing to sing a song for it?"
"..."
 
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Runners have factions in that different people run for different reasons, and so their philosophical and practical approaches will differ:

(paraphrased from the announcement)
Anarchs run for justice/revenge. To bring down the corporations/governments they see as evil. A champion of "the people" (perhaps in their mind), they'll use every dirty trick in the book to achieve success. They take risks and may sacrifice others to get ahead.

Criminals run for money. They are professional thieves. Many times they're hired by rival companies / rich people. They seldom question the job so long as the risk matches the reward. They tend to be well-financed and have cutting-edge equipment. They go in prepared and get out quick without drawing attention to themselves.

Shapers run for the thrill of the challenge. Their motives are more personal, more spiritual. To a shaper, every piece of secured data is a challenge, a dare. Every line of code is hand-written, every piece of equipment hand-crafted or bodged together. Running is a test of their skills, a way to measure their own personal worth. Moral causes and money mean much less to them. Why run? Because it's there.

We are not for certain yet how these will translate into card statistics and balances, except for a few examples.
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Don't spend much time the corporate world do you? Corps limit themselves all the time, choosing to be an all mac or pc environment, using specific office suite software, having specific goals and values so directing their employees to work harder to be green or source local, as well as the ties corporations have with each other especially when they are wholly-owned subsidiaries of a mega corp, the megacorp which owns many different small corporations, they like to keep it in the family only using products and services provided or manufactured by their related companies. And then of course their are trade secrets, patents, copyrights etc that force divisions on corporations.

And really hackers are not that different. Hackers in a network will share ideas and ideology so they will work together for specific goals, use similar defenses and attack programs, and hackers who learn together sometimes have similar approaches to hacking.

Also, in regards to running I'm pretty sure the runner identity cards represent actual people in the android universe, such as Noise Reilly, so the corporations will probably be faceless megacorps and runners will probably be specific individuals who fall into one of the three factions. I don't know if they are going to expand on the identities, but it seems like a ripe design space to explore further in future releases. I hope they do the same with corporations too. I don't know if we'll see something like MirrorMorph or Melange Mining, but maybe subsidiaries of the big four.
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