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Subject: Effect of damage to cannon? rss

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Alan Richbourg
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Under combat damage effects, the rules say "You inflict one less hit for each point of damage." Does this apply when you Tie or Lose a Shoot action? Example: Your Galleon has had its cannons reduced to 2 from its normal 4 in previous rounds, you roll 2 successes, and your opponent rolls 3. Do you inflict 2 hits on your opponent, or 2 - 2 = 0 hits?
 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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When deciding how many die to throw for damage, you throw the amount equal to the cannons you have left on board.

So in your example you would have thrown four for a full salvo, but now with two gone you would only throw two.

It doesn't effect your seasmanship rolls, just the number of hits you can make
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George
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Well, his example shows a loss on the Seamanship roll, which means for each success you can roll a hit, limited by your cannon value. In other words, the lower of either your cannon value or successes rolled value.

"You inflict one less hit for each point of damage" does still apply to Tie/Loss results in that if you roll more successes than your current cannon value, you are missing out. E.g. if you lost the seamanship roll with 3 successes, you'd only get to fire your two remaining cannons.

But yes, 2 hits for that example is correct.
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Alan Richbourg
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I agree with George (I think) that that's the way it should be, but the rules as written seem to contradict that imo. This is probably an opportunity for an errata update.

I'll consider to be revised like this:

"The maximum possible number of hits you can inflict is reduced by one for each point of damage, as explained in the shoot action description."
 
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Harold Coleman
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I think the comment, "You inflict one less hit for each point of damage" in the Hit Locations & Damage section is referring to the winner of the seamanship roll getting to hit with "all" of his cannons, i.e. less one for each damaged cannon. In the Combat Action section, it is further clarified that the loser of the seamanship inflicts damage with each successful die roll "up to the number of "Cannons" on his ship. I don't see how the rules can be misinterpreted. A hit to you cannons takes one of them out. This affects the number of hits you can make as the winner of the seamanship roll and "may" affect the number of hits you can inflict if you are the loser and roll more successes than you have cannons.
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Stephen S.
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I'm going to disagree with the apparent consensus here. On page 14 of the rule book when it defines the Shoot action: "Win: Inflict a hit with all your "Cannons". Tie or Lose: Inflict a hit with each die that came up a success(up to the number of "Cannons" on your ship)."
And then under damage effects: "Cannons: You inflict one less hit for each point of damage. If destroyed, you can't inflict any cannon-hits."

The rules don't say anything about applying cannon damage effects only if you win the seamanship roll and the damage effect doesn't say it only reduces your max available cannons. It simply says you inflict one less hit with your cannons for each point of damage they've taken. Since the rules don't specify any exceptions my group reads it as you ALWAYS inflict one less hit per cannon damage whether you win lose or tie your seamanship roll. I believe in your example the player made 2 success causing 2 hits but loses 2 hits because that's the amount of damage his cannons have taken.

I believe this is the way the rules are meant to be played although they could be clearer by the shooting description referencing cannon damage. Thematically I think it makes sense too. If a ship has had its firepower reduced then it's reduced across the board. Not just in the best case (winning a seamanship roll) scenario. Mechanically, I think playing it as written places a large emphasis on seamanship which seems to fit with the rest of the combat system.
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Kyle
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ewerd614 wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the apparent consensus here. On page 14 of the rule book when it defines the Shoot action: "Win: Inflict a hit with all your "Cannons". Tie or Lose: Inflict a hit with each die that came up a success(up to the number of "Cannons" on your ship)."
And then under damage effects: "Cannons: You inflict one less hit for each point of damage. If destroyed, you can't inflict any cannon-hits."

The rules don't say anything about applying cannon damage effects only if you win the seamanship roll and the damage effect doesn't say it only reduces your max available cannons. It simply says you inflict one less hit with your cannons for each point of damage they've taken. Since the rules don't specify any exceptions my group reads it as you ALWAYS inflict one less hit per cannon damage whether you win lose or tie your seamanship roll. I believe in your example the player made 2 success causing 2 hits but loses 2 hits because that's the amount of damage his cannons have taken.

I believe this is the way the rules are meant to be played although they could be clearer by the shooting description referencing cannon damage. Thematically I think it makes sense too. If a ship has had its firepower reduced then it's reduced across the board. Not just in the best case (winning a seamanship roll) scenario. Mechanically, I think playing it as written places a large emphasis on seamanship which seems to fit with the rest of the combat system.
The problem with this interpretation is that it makes the the tie/loss effect of shooting virtually meaningless if you've taken any damage at all to your cannons.

For example:
Player A (in a sloop) rolls mbmb2
Player B (in a Man-O-War) rolls mbmb1

Player A won the roll so player B has to use the Tie/Loss result, but if they'd previously taken two hits to their cannons they'd do ZERO damage using your interpretation, despite having three perfectly good cannons still left on the ship.

If the MoW took a third hit to cannons (or the captain's Seamanship value was only 2), it would become impossible for them to do any damage to that Sloop unless they managed to win the Seamanship roll.

--------------------------

The rule about doing one less damage per hit to cannons only applies when firing ALL of your ship's cannons, otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

If you had five cannons and lost two, you've got three cannons left. Simple as that. If you lose/tie the seamanship contest you can still fire as many of those three cannons as successes you rolled.
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Stephen S.
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Woelf wrote:
The problem with this interpretation is that it makes the the tie/loss effect of shooting virtually meaningless if you've taken any damage at all to your cannons.

I understand what you're saying but my group doesn't think it's a problem. If a ship has its firepower reduced then it will be harder for that captain and crew to bring its remaining broadside to bear on an opponent. Like I said in my last sentence, this places an emphasis on seamanship or, as I see it thematically, the captain and crew's ability to sail and fight the ship.

Woelf wrote:
The rule about doing one less damage per hit to cannons only applies when firing ALL of your ship's cannons, otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

I disagree. As I pointed out the rules don't say cannon damage only takes effect when you win a seamanship contest and I think it makes perfect sense. In your example, if the MoW has taken 2 damage to its cannons then 40% of that ships cannons are out of action. The captain of the opposing ship is probably thinking about his own well being as well as destroying the enemy so I believe he's going to try and stay out of the MoW's line of fire as much as possible. This means if he puts his ship where he wants to (wins a seamanship contest), then he's going to put it where the MoW can't hurt him (under a disabled battery).

Woelf wrote:
If the MoW took a third hit to cannons (or the captain's Seamanship value was only 2), it would become impossible for them to do any damage to that Sloop unless they managed to win the Seamanship roll.

If a ship has 60% of its armament out of action or is being sailed poorly then I think it should be very difficult for that ship to bring its remaining weight to bear and near impossible if its opponent is out sailing it all the time.

In the end it comes down to winning seamanship rolls and if you can't do that then I don't think you should be winning the combat. If anyone has something from the rulebook, FAQ, or designer that'll help shed some light on this then please post it.
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Your case rests on subtleties and nuances in the wording of the rule, but bear in mind that the designer's native language isn't English. A forum search bears out that his intent matches what manfromtherock, soosy and Woelf have described.

Christian makes it clear in this thread that the number of cannons you have is what matters, not the number of cannons you have lost:

Re: Seamanship roll vs. Actual number of cannons...

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Kyle
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ewerd614 wrote:
Woelf wrote:
The problem with this interpretation is that it makes the the tie/loss effect of shooting virtually meaningless if you've taken any damage at all to your cannons.

I understand what you're saying but my group doesn't think it's a problem. If a ship has its firepower reduced then it will be harder for that captain and crew to bring its remaining broadside to bear on an opponent.
That's what the damage to cannons is already representing.

If that MoW had lost four of its five cannons it would only get to hit with one of them even if it did roll two successes in the Seamanship roll (win or loss/tie).

The hits for successes on a tie/loss represent passing shots that you get while the other ship is outmaneuvering you. You obviously won't get to bring all of your cannons to bear (unless you only had one or two in the first place), but you can still sneak some damage in here and there, which to the small ship getting hit is still significant.

Quote:
If a ship has 60% of its armament out of action or is being sailed poorly then I think it should be very difficult for that ship to bring its remaining weight to bear and near impossible if its opponent is out sailing it all the time.
Thematically (in real life) a MoW with only 60% of its cannons in usable condition still has a heck of a lot more firepower than even a fully loaded sloop, and even if that sloop is sailing circles around the bigger ship (by winning the roll), there are still more than enough cannons spitting out damage that the sloop won't be able to get by without even a scratch - hence the successes still causing damage even with a tie/loss in seamanship.

The only way the sloop gets through the round untouched is when the other ship rolls no successes.
Quote:
In the end it comes down to winning seamanship rolls and if you can't do that then I don't think you should be winning the combat. If anyone has something from the rulebook, FAQ, or designer that'll help shed some light on this then please post it.
Winning the roll is important, but it's not everything. Even if the big ship never wins the roll, the sloop is still facing a battle of attrition. If it can't win decisively within a couple turns, it's not going to survive a long, drawn-out battle no matter how much more maneuverable it is.

With the entire emphasis on the seamanship roll that can make it frighteningly easy for a small ship to beat a large one. If that works okay for your group that's fine, but it's not the way it's intended to work - as the link posted by Sphere indicates.
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Alan Richbourg
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Would be nice if the designer would simply post an answer here and end the speculation.
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Stephen S.
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Thanks for the link Sphere. I actually never realized this rule was so ambiguous. We read the rules once and thought that's the way it was suppose to be played. I'll show this thread to my group and we'll talk about it.
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Steve Duff
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Woelf wrote:
If you had five cannons and lost two, you've got three cannons left. Simple as that. If you lose/tie the seamanship contest you can still fire as many of those three cannons as successes you rolled.


Yup. Dead simple.

I really don't see any ambiguity on this. The rules tell you a hit cannon is a destroyed cannon, each hit against you is one less maximum damage you can deal out.

ewerd614 wrote:
I disagree. As I pointed out the rules don't say cannon damage only takes effect when you win a seamanship contest and I think it makes perfect sense.


Ignore the part where Kyle said it only applies to wins, it's not the best stated part of his post.

You are correct, cannon damage does always apply, whether you win or lose the seamanship contest. If I had 5 cannons, and took 2 hits, I now have 3 cannons. 3 is the most I can fire, win or lose.

If I roll 4 successes yet lose the contest, I fire 3 times, since I only have 3 cannons. If I win the contest with 1 success, I fire all, which still equals 3.

But you're not correct to double subtract. First you're subtracting 2 from my 5 cannons reducing me to 3. Then you're subtracting 2 *again* to put the hits down to 0. That's 4 reduction from 2 hits, which is clearly not the "one less hit for each point of damage" that the rules state.
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Christian Marcussen
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chargetheguns wrote:
Would be nice if the designer would simply post an answer here and end the speculation.


Hi.

I appologize for the appearent ambiguity. Between the examples and the rules themselves I thought it was pretty clear. A man-o-war with four hits to cannons can still do one hit with one success regardless of wins, lose or ties. In other words Sphere, Kyle, et al. has it right.

In addition to that I strongly urge you to reconsider how you are doing it now for the sake of gameplay and balance. Obviously if you continue to have the most fun with your interpritaion you should stick to it. But consider it
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