Kinley Engvalson
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In game terms, is Spain now an ally of Portugal?

Or at war with Portugal until at peace with England?

Is there such a thing as a conquered minor in this game?

When is the new status effective--immediately or beginning of next turn?

Can Portugese Attack be played against the Spanish in the Phillipines despite Spanish occuption of Portugal?

Can Portugal be swiped from Spain by Dip. Status Check?
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Steven
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Kinley wrote:
In game terms, is Spain now an ally of Portugal?


If Portugal is activated by England, who is at war with Spain, and Spain takes Portugal, they are not allied. Portugal is controlled by England until a card is played to trigger another Diplomatic status check.

Important note: the power who gets the one random treasure from Portugal is not the power who is allied to Portugal, but the power who controls Lisbon. So, in this case, Spain would be getting another treasure.

Quote:
Or at war with Portugal until at peace with England?


Spain is at war with England. Spain cannot be at war with a minor if it is activated by a major power.

Quote:
Is there such a thing as a conquered minor in this game?


Kind of, but its status could change (Spain could take it over possibly, or France).

This is different than HIS. No longer will you typcially take and hold a minor the entire game. Its status could change (unless you declare war).

Quote:
When is the new status effective--immediately or beginning of next turn?


Portugal's status can be determined by event play (ex: Dom Antonio, Eloquent Ambassaror) or a DOW, once the mandatory event Death of King Sebastion is played.

Check out page 41, resolving diplomatic status for the procedure to follow.

Quote:
Can Portugese Attack be played against the Spanish in the Phillipines despite Spanish occuption of Portugal?


Two things:
1. Portuguese Attack cannot be played against Spain. It does not have colonies, only a HCM in the Phillipines.
2. Portugese Attack cannot be played against the ally of Portugal (which in your example is not Spain, but England).

Spain could play Portugal Attacks against France or the Protestant if they had a colony which could be removed and they would get a treasure. But they cannot target the ally of Portugal, England in your example.

Quote:
Can Portugal be swiped from Spain by Dip. Status Check?


This is a bit more complicated.

If Spain DoW'ed Portugal initially, no. Its status could change (now allied to France instead of England), but Spain would not be kicked out of Portugal. This is because its Diplomatic influence marker would be removed from Portugal. Someone could play City States Rebel against Lisbon to try to kick the Spanish out OR attempt to land troops there, but it could not longer be taken diplomatically.

See this thread. Spain has no marker so it would be similar to the Ottomans DoWing Venice (no longer have any marker).

If Spain was at war with England and England activated Portugal. It is possible to Spain to lose Portugal if France activates it.

See this thread in this case. It would be like England occupying a French allied Scotland.
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Kinley Engvalson
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Thanks.
 
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Alex Ferguson
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
[q="Kinley"]Important note: the power who gets the one random treasure from Portugal is not the power who is allied to Portugal, but the power who controls Lisbon. So, in this case, Spain would be getting another treasure.

Only if Spain is the power playing the card, that is.

Quote:

Quote:
Or at war with Portugal until at peace with England?


Spain is at war with England. Spain cannot be at war with a minor if it is activated by a major power.

Technically that's true, in that no "at war" marker is placed between them, but in effect, Spain and Portugal are at war, and remain that way while an ally of a power that's at war with them. It's just that Portugal has no independent status, or "say" in the matter.

Quote:
If Spain was at war with England and England activated Portugal. It is possible to Spain to lose Portugal if France activates it.

I don't think that's the situation envisaged by the question, but it is certainly an interesting one. The apparent anomaly, I think, is that Spain would get no chance to DoW France (in this case) per 24.2.2, before their markers get replaced, and their units displaced. IMO it would make sense that a MP that's going to be thus-effected to get such a chance. Probably not in general, though: a power getting a "free" DoW in on another major, over the "pretext" of a minor it's not deployed in would seem a little gratuitous. Those cases can wait and pony up the CPs in due course.
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FergusWindbag wrote:

Only if Spain is the power playing the card, that is.


Yes correct. Only the power who controls Lisbon can kill a colony and get a treasure. I was just going off his example, where Spain controls Lisbon, but does not control Portugal diplomatically.

Quote:
Technically that's true, in that no "at war" marker is placed between them, but in effect, Spain and Portugal are at war, and remain that way while an ally of a power that's at war with them. It's just that Portugal has no independent status, or "say" in the matter.


I guess a better way to put it is: Portugal's status is controlled by England.

Quote:
I don't think that's the situation envisaged by the question, but it is certainly an interesting one. The apparent anomaly, I think, is that Spain would get no chance to DoW France (in this case) per 24.2.2, before their markers get replaced, and their units displaced. IMO it would make sense that a MP that's going to be thus-effected to get such a chance. Probably not in general, though: a power getting a "free" DoW in on another major, over the "pretext" of a minor it's not deployed in would seem a little gratuitous. Those cases can wait and pony up the CPs in due course.


I just wanted to lay out the two different cases. If Spain DoW's Lisbon (in order to get that extra treasure quickly), Spain forfeits the right to influencing Portugal diplomatically (cannot win it in a Dip Status check, cannot build Portuguese units etc). On the plus side it gets that treasure easilly and can is not at risk to Portugal suddenly turning to England or France.

DoWing Portugal seems to me, to be the safest play as Spain (unless it would throw the game to France or England). That way you are guaranteed another treasure and do not have to wait for Eloquent Ambassador or Dom Antonio to appear. Of course you have to wait for poor King Sebastion to pass away...
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
If Spain DoW's Lisbon (in order to get that extra treasure quickly), Spain forfeits the right to influencing Portugal diplomatically (cannot win it in a Dip Status check, cannot build Portuguese units etc).

Actually, it belatedly occurs that there's a "smaller" fix for the apparent anomaly in losing control of minor's spaces due to a "switch" in control: just allow the major in question to remove its influence marker at that point, if it so wishes. So it wouldn't get a 'free' DoW, but it wouldn't be somewhat artificially forced to give up its spaces, if it intends to keep them by force.
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