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Subject: [Poverty] New Fan Card: Junkpile rss

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wally2069 wally2069
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I have a lot of ideas. I have been lurking pretty heavily for a while. Now I would like some feedback beyond my same circle of friends. Here is a custom card for criticism.

Junkpile [1]
Action
Reveal the top four cards of your deck. The player on your right chooses one for your to discard. The player on your left chooses one for you to discard. Draw the rest.

It uses similar wording to Envoy and the set I am working on is based around cheap stuff (like one cost cards and negative money). The planned name for the set is Poverty. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it.
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J
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First of all welcome. You'll always find people here willing to critique and give advice on cards.

The question you should be asking is when would someone want to buy my card.

Dominion is not a game where your goal is to buy as many cards as possible. It is one to make a deck that will efficiently get you to 8 coins each turn even if that means passing your buy when you don't have a lot of money in your hand.

I'm glad that you recognize that the card is a much weaker version of envoy. That being said its a very very weak card and just the virtue of having a 1 coin cost doesn't make it appealing for players to buy.

I'd probably choose to pass my turn rather than buy the card even if it was the only thing I could afford (sides curses and coppers). I can guarantee no one would even shoot your card a glance if they had 3 coins or more to spend unless they were running a deck that scored points based on having a lot of cards/action cards in their deck.
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Roberta Yang
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Strictly worse than a flat +2 Cards, and a flat +2 Cards isn't worth $2. Not worth buying ever.
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wally2069 wally2069
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allstar64 wrote:
I'd probably choose to pass my turn rather than buy the card even if it was the only thing I could afford (sides curses and coppers). I can guarantee no one would even shoot your card a glance if they had 3 coins or more to spend unless they were running a deck that scored points based on having a lot of cards/action cards in their deck.

This is the part I find most worth discussion. If someone is playing an action heavy deck, would they rather buy a +2 card variant rather than a silver?

I get that it might need just a little more appeal than that, but not sure how to raise the power without raising the cost.

The original version of this card had +1 Action, but even getting the two worst cards, it felt way overpowered. Or am I wrong and it would be fine with that addition?

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Werner Bär
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wally2069 wrote:
The player on your right chooses one for your to discard. The player on your left chooses one for you to discard.

Try to avoid decision making by the player to your right, since he's busy shuffling his deck. Better let the left player discard two cards.
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Mike Miller

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Hmmm...

Honestly, while it does seem to 'not be worth it' in most decks, I can see it being spectacular in some. I would definitely Goons for that card if I had enough of an engine going or towards the end of the game. It would make a big turn rush to end the game easy, a nice spike-type move if you will, snatching an entire pile cheap, always a threat at the cost of one when a lot of buys are present.

Though situational, every card is situational. There are some times I do not buy 2 cost cards as I feel they dilute my deck, this would happen here more so.

For the cost, the effect is adequate. I actually like the card quite a bit.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Buy this with Goons, have Goons discarded every time. Coppers would still be better. Only time that isn't situationally so is if Scrying Pool is around, since it can draw beyond all these while it cannot do so for Coppers. So in this case, highly situational = 1 card makes it not suck.
 
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Mike Miller

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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Buy this with Goons, have Goons discarded every time. Coppers would still be better. Only time that isn't situationally so is if Scrying Pool is around, since it can draw beyond all these while it cannot do so for Coppers. So in this case, highly situational = 1 card makes it not suck.

The point isn't to use the card, it's to drain a deck cheap and use the buy for a +1 VP. It may be situational, but it's not a one trick pony.
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Kevin Costello
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pinkymadigan wrote:

The point isn't to use the card, it's to drain a deck cheap and use the buy for a +1 VP. It may be situational, but it's not a one trick pony.


It sounds like you'd be almost as excited about a card that literally did nothing and its only property was that it costed 1 coin.
 
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Mike Miller

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kevincos wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:

The point isn't to use the card, it's to drain a deck cheap and use the buy for a +1 VP. It may be situational, but it's not a one trick pony.


It sounds like you'd be almost as excited about a card that literally did nothing and its only property was that it costed 1 coin.


No, I don't think so. A cost of 1 is not exciting. But the card is reasonably balanced at a cost of 1. In fact, aside from the +1 card/+1 action fan card, it's one of the few that I thought "Yeah, that fits cost 1".

I think it's reasonable to expect that a cost 1 card would not be a very inviting card, but a highly situational card. As it is, there are plenty of cost 2 cards that people pass up on all the time. They are still good cards, they are just not good in a particular set of cards.

It follows that cost 1 cards would be even more situational, and good in less sets.

I imagine that this is one of those cards you have to think about to use well, and I, for one, like cards with that property.
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Destry Miller
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Drawing two cards is worth less than 2 (compare to Moat, which is draw two cards + the reaction), so I'd expect drawing the worst 2 of the next 4 cards to be worth close to zero. Maybe if you added +2 actions to it, it might be worth 1 coin. It'd still be weaker than Crossroads.
 
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Mike Miller

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destry wrote:
Drawing two cards is worth less than 2 (compare to Moat, which is draw two cards + the reaction), so I'd expect drawing the worst 2 of the next 4 cards to be worth close to zero. Maybe if you added +2 actions to it, it might be worth 1 coin. It'd still be weaker than Crossroads.


I don't entirely agree with your logic.

I do agree that it is weaker than Crossroads, but it is clearly stronger than a copper, pending you do not play it incorrectly. Therefore, I feel it sits comfortably in the gap. I also feel that adding a single action to it would be okay (but probably too strong), but two would make it downright desirable on plenty of boards.

If you add a single action it chains with itself, so there isn't much risk to help churn your deck. Probably not ideal for a 1 cost card. A 1 cost card needs to be difficult to use well, it shouldn't really be a no-brainer.

I know we only have cost 0 and cost 2 cards to go off of, but I feel everyone is skewing their opinion based on what makes a card desirable, not what makes a card balanced.

EDIT: also, keep in mind that Native Village is +2 actions, +.5 cards. The milling potential for a +2 actions, + 2 worst of 4 cards card would be ridiculous, and even if it didn't stack favorably to Crossroads (arguable), it clearly is comparable to Native Village if you tack on +2 actions.
 
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Jason Lee
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To me, the critical bit is that it's a cost-1 card. No other work needed.

Having a cost-1 card changes the "Upgrade a Copper" or "Develop an Estate" dynamics severely.

Which makes me think:

A Restful Day (Action; Cost=1)
- Do nothing

A Bit of Money (Treasure; Cost=1)
- Value = 1
- No other effects

A Quiet Garden (Victory; Cost=1)
- 0 VP
- No other effects

In other words, these are here entirely and only because cost 1 is an interesting thing.
 
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Kevin Costello
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pinkymadigan wrote:
It follows that cost 1 cards would be even more situational, and good in less sets.


But the only situation I've seen argued for so far is the goons case, where even you literally said that the point wasn't to play the card at all, just to drain a pile...
 
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Mike Miller

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mazout wrote:
To me, the critical bit is that it's a cost-1 card. No other work needed.

Having a cost-1 card changes the "Upgrade a Copper" or "Develop an Estate" dynamics severely.

Which makes me think:

A Restful Day (Action; Cost=1)
- Do nothing

A Bit of Money (Treasure; Cost=1)
- Value = 1
- No other effects

A Quiet Garden (Victory; Cost=1)
- 0 VP
- No other effects

In other words, these are here entirely and only because cost 1 is an interesting thing.


While I do agree with this premise, I also feel that since no cost 1 cards are established, and effects like the OP's are tricky to use well, there is definitely room in the cost 1 space for cards like it. They don't need to be empty cards at cost 1 with that being the main property (they could, since no cost 1 cards currently exist to compare them to), but they can also have effects that are difficult to use well and sit in between the 0 and 2 space.

I think either idea is fine, until a cost 1 card is established for a baseline. Clearly, the three cards you propose would be about as far as you can take that concept, whereas the OP's card gives plenty of space around it for effects that are 'okay, but difficult to use'.
 
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kevincos wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
It follows that cost 1 cards would be even more situational, and good in less sets.


But the only situation I've seen argued for so far is the goons case, where even you literally said that the point wasn't to play the card at all, just to drain a pile...


There are others, they just haven't been expounded upon yet. The 'every 3 action cards is a VP' card from Alchemy comes to mind. If the board has enough +2 action cards then this becomes a good way to get through the middle of your deck if you are building an engine capable of getting through itself every turn (it obviously can't finish drawing, but that's another matter).

I can imagine in a goons game these going early, provided there is enough actions or throne rooms or king courting going on. There are lots of interesting applications for cards like these, I think you just need to think about them critically. 95% of the time you can probably win games without considering this card, heck, I probably ignore 2 point cards in a good 75% of games, unless they are providing something the rest of the board doesn't offer.

That's what kind of card a cost 1 card should be- something that takes some skill (and the right table) to play well.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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pinkymadigan wrote:
I don't entirely agree with your logic.

I do agree that it is weaker than Crossroads, but it is clearly stronger than a copper...


It isn't even verifiably stronger than Copper. Copper is worth 1 coin. This card may be worth 0, in that you are not too unlikely to be handed a pair of Victory cards or Curses. If playing Junkpile was your last action, you are going to be given Action cards. Playing this will be worth nothing much of the time and for taking up a card in your hand, wasting an action, and bypassing cards you'd rather draw, it is quite detrimental. Even if you have some way to make drawing things like Victory cards and Curses worthwhile, like holding Crossroads or a trasher, your opponents will know such things are available to you. Seeing four cards right now gives them a lot of information about what else you may be holding, so if they see your only trasher among those four, they will stick you with garbage--and that's assuming you still have the action remaining to play it. This is not stronger than Copper. Copper has a reliable value and always does something for you--even if it doesn't do enough for you--but it certainly doesn't allow for the opportunity to always bypass your best card.

pinkymadigan wrote:
If you add a single action it chains with itself, so there isn't much risk to help churn your deck. Probably not ideal for a 1 cost card. A 1 cost card needs to be difficult to use well, it shouldn't really be a no-brainer.


Envoy would be delicious with +1 Action. In fact, there would really be no time that it isn't desirable. As it stands, what makes Envoy interesting and properly situational is that it doesn't work well in every deck.

pinkymadigan wrote:
I know we only have cost 0 and cost 2 cards to go off of, but I feel everyone is skewing their opinion based on what makes a card desirable, not what makes a card balanced.


That is a completely misled argument. A card can be perfectly balanced but never desired and that means it is absolutely worthless. No matter how perfectly weighed the price and opportunity to get it may be, if no-one ever desires it, there is no need for the card to exist.

This one may even be detrimental because it is often better to trash Coppers and Curses with Upgrade, Governor, or Remake and receive nothing than it is to pick up a weak card that you don't want. This is why I usually Upgrade my Coppers before some of my Estates: Getting nothing in their place improves the deck's pacing and causes stronger cards to show up more frequently. Not only would a 1-coin card stuff that up, but this 1-coin card potentially reduces the frequency that stronger cards are ever seen. So, the card can be balanced with a price tag of 1 coin, but since it is not desired, the only real effect is that its appearance in the supply ruins good strategies -- and while that itself may cause an adjustment in play, a challenge to adapt to, it doesn't mean the card is suddenly good because it was priced well.

Consider Duchess, which may have a detrimental effect in the assistance it provides the opposition. It has a low price and even the opportunity cost to get one is lesser than any other card, in that it can be picked up in addition to a Duchy with no strings attached. Yet, people don't always get the bonus Duchess because it isn't always desired. The fact that Duchess isn't a worthless card means that she is occasionally desired and she is balanced for all she's worth.
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Kevin Costello
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pinkymadigan wrote:

There are others, they just haven't been expounded upon yet. The 'every 3 action cards is a VP' card from Alchemy comes to mind. If the board has enough +2 action cards then this becomes a good way to get through the middle of your deck if you are building an engine capable of getting through itself every turn (it obviously can't finish drawing, but that's another matter).


But it doesn't! This doesn't become a good way to do anything. If there are enough actions, this card gets "upgraded" to still the worst card drawer in the game by a significant margin. Even Moat is a lousy engine card. If your engine relies on a card like Junkpile, your strategy is probably going to lose to Big Money.

So it seems the only reasons to buy this card is for the vp chip from goons, or to have another action card for vineyard. I'll even throw in fairgrounds and gardens in this category. But who cares? Heck, with those cards in play, in the right circumstances, it would make even sense to buy an action card that does nothing and gives you a vp penalty.
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How about this: Village, trash two Treasure maps, play Junk Pile?

I'm telling you, this card just requires thought. Just because a copper beats a poorly played card doesn't mean copper is stronger, it means it is easier to play.
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kevincos wrote:


But it doesn't! This doesn't become a good way to do anything. If there are enough actions, this card gets "upgraded" to still the worst card drawer in the game by a significant margin. Even Moat is a lousy engine card. If your engine relies on a card like Junkpile, your strategy is probably going to lose to Big Money.


You may not put together decks the same way I do, but I know I can make decks that draw four cards that no one at the table wants me to have without too much thought given the presence of a trasher.

EDIT: you guys are still looking at this all wrong. The point isn't to make a card that you can build an entire strategy around. It's to make a card that is reasonable within the existing confines of the game. I think this card is great for a cost 1 card.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I'm betting every time your put together one of those decks, you didn't do it with something as lame as this self-proclaimed-pile-of-junk.
 
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Mike Miller

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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
I don't entirely agree with your logic.

I do agree that it is weaker than Crossroads, but it is clearly stronger than a copper...




Also, way to remove the context by not adding the rest of that sentence.
 
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I'm betting every time your put together one of those decks, you didn't do it with something as lame as this self-proclaimed-pile-of-junk.


Very true, this card doesn't exist. But I did do it with coppers and estates, two of the lamest cards in the game.

EDIT: and I've definitely done it with Moat or Courtyard.
 
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Kevin Costello
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pinkymadigan wrote:
How about this: Village, trash two Treasure maps, play Junk Pile?

I'm telling you, this card just requires thought. Just because a copper beats a poorly played card doesn't mean copper is stronger, it means it is easier to play.


So, ignoring the fact that this "combo" takes 4 cards in hand just to work... how is this an argument in favor of junkpile? You just let your opponents discard two of your golds. I'm always happy when my treasure maps hit, but this is still vastly worse than a moat, which would give you 2 golds now and 2 golds next turn. And sometimes you want neither of these so you can just wait until next turn and buy a province/kings court/platinum/colony/etc.

Quote:
You may not put together decks the same way I do, but I know I can make decks that draw four cards that no one at the table wants me to have without too much thought given the presence of a trasher.


So... yes. I understand that. But think about it. First, you've just trashed all of your estates. At this point Junkpile is still strictly inferior to silver. But okay, now you trash your coppers and replace them with silver+. NOW, junkpile might be like a +4$ or even more. That's cool, right? But think about it. Your deck is already averaging 8-10 coins. Why are you buying a 1-cost card that is still worse than moat?!? Buy Gold... or almost any other card. Or just start buying provinces and win. But junkpile is certainly not the right move here.
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Kevin Costello
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pinkymadigan wrote:

EDIT: you guys are still looking at this all wrong. The point isn't to make a card that you can build an entire strategy around. It's to make a card that is reasonable within the existing confines of the game. I think this card is great for a cost 1 card.


The point is to make a card that is worth buying. This isn't one. This is always going to be the problem with a 1 cost card*. The fact that it's 1 cost doesn't matter, because its so rare that you have exactly 1 coin to spend that you're almost always going to be overpaying for it. So it might as well just be a terrible 2-coster.

You say its situational, but that's not how situational cards work. Coppersmith is a situational card. The vast majority of games, I wouldn't take it if its free. But that doesn't necessarily mean the card should be dirt cheap. Its priced at 4 because that's a good price for it when its worth buying at all. Even if junkpile were situationally worth buying it's cost should be appropriate to its worth when its a good idea. But since even in the most optimistic case, its still worse than the 2-cost moat, I'm not going to quibble over the 1-coin cost.

The point is that there's no reason to have a nearly strictly inferior** budget-version of a card (Moat) that is already one of the cheapest and weakest cards in the game***.

* I should add, a 1-cost card that you buy. I actually think its very plausible that Shelter or Ruins will have a "cost" of 1.

**Please don't bother bringing up the case of topdecking 4 tunnels...

*** http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/12/09/the-five-worst-2-card... (The money quote: "The +2 Cards is so pathetically weak that you should probably just not bother building a +Actions/+Cards engine around it.")
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