Mark Twain
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Hello Boardgamegeek, after a week or so lurking I have decided to join your ranks.

Two questions.
1) Mace Tyrell versus The Blackfish

Mace Tyrell (MT): "Immediately destroy one or your opponent's attacking or defending footman units."

The Blackfish (TB): "You do not take casualties in this combat from House card abilities, Combat icons, or Tides of Battle cards."

This would be a non-issue if TB said "Your forces are IMMEDIATELY protected from taking casualties in this combat from House card abilities, Combat icons, or Tides of Battle cards." Alas, this is not so.

Thoughts?

2) The Doran Martell Strikes Back!

Ok, another "immediately" confusion.

2a) Doran Martell versus Stannis Baratheon

Doran Martell (DM): "Immediately move your opponent to the bottom of one Influence track of your choice."

Stannis Baratheon (SB): "If your opponent has a higher position on the Iron Throne [IT] Influence track than you, this card gains +1 combat strength."

Thoughts?

2b) Ok, this one if more complex. What if the Influence track chosen is not the IT track... *der dum dum*

Scenario...
Baratheon ranked 1 in ALL three Influence tracks attacks a poor defenseless Martell who is ranked 3/2/5.

Scenario1 - IT
I have read an official response concerning DM's targeting the IT track, however, I thought it wise to put it out there while asking about the other tracks.

Say Baratheon is 1, Tyrell is 2, and Lannister is 3...

Does Baratheon use up 'rank 1's march order phase'? If so, that would make it Lannister's move. This could be very important, especially if Martell is allied with either Tyrell or Lannister. Playing DM Might not only punish Bartheon, but also an ally or an allies' enemy.

Scenario2 - Fiefdoms
If DM targets the Fiefdoms track, does Martell, as the former 2 and now 1 on said track, garner the Valerian Sword (VS) AND the 'wins ties' bonuses. I would think so, but was curious, since I am unsure if Barathon is allowed to have already 'commited' his VS.

Scenario3 - King's Court
This is the most tricky... Because it deals with power tokens. Are you allowed to add power tokens, up too, however many you're now allowed (I would doubt it) AND/OR does Barathon run into problems now that he no longer has 'legal' power tokens. Are they removed, do they become standard tokens? I would think it does not affect this round in any way.

Thanks in advance for any assistance win clearing up these rules.
 
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Matthew Gibson
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1) The Blackfish would protect his units from Mace. Immediatly isn't being faster than both being revealed at the same time. It just means usually Mace kills a unit before it can take part in the combat resolution.

2) Doran would give Stannis +1 strength if DM targets the Throne.

2b) 1- I don't think so. It's not that Baratheon has 'used up' turn 1, It's just turn order. Tyrell would still go second, then lannister etc etc.
edit - Although the way it's worded in the book is...meh. I still think I'm right

2- Yes, the blade is used after house cards are revealed. Baratheon would not be allowed to use the blade before DM pushed him to last. Note if it has already been used in a prior battle, it would remain used up though. Martell would also win a tie.

3- I don't think it would affect this round. But I'm really not sure on this one.
 
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Martin Hall
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In reverse order
King Court standing affects orders that you can place in Orders phase, so Doran changes only affect next orders phase, not current turn.

If the Blade has already been used, then it is still used when taken over. You do not flip it back.

If Baratheon is dropped in iron throne, then the next march resolved is by number 2 position, now Lannister in your example. Baratheon has another march in 6 position, then Tyrell has a march in 1 position after that.
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Mark Twain
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Thanks for answering, you have confirmed my suspicions. One thing though...

SuperMegaMatt wrote:
1)
2) Doran would stop Stannis from getting +1 strength if DM targets the Throne.


Do you mean 'Doran would GIVE Stannis his blah? Since his blah requires him to be lower.

Just clarifying for speed readers who may be confused.
 
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Matthew Gibson
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Oh yeah, speed reading ftw. Totally misread the card.
 
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dypaca
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1) I don't think that Mace's ability counts as a casualty. Blackfish protects against sword icons, skull icons, and abilities that gain swords. (also in the card set where this ability was first written, there was another card which said you take a casualty)

2a) I agree, Doran would give Stannis the +1. Edit: I guess it depends on whether Stannis's ability is a passive effect, or an immediate effect that is checked once in turn order.

2b) The Faq covers two of these cases.
Doran on the throne track usually causes a player's turn to be skipped and the targeted player to get an extra turn. The exception is if Martell is attacking and at the bottom of the throne track, then it is the extra turn that gets skipped. (EDIT: on further thought, there are more exceptions. The point is that you resolve each space on the throne track in order, regardless of how the influence markers shift)
Doran on the King's Court will not matter until the next planning phase.

The FAQ doesn't cover the fiefdoms track, but I think its clear in the rules that the change to determining ties and the holder of the blade take place immediately. The blade can't be used on the current battle before Doran's ability, but if it was used on a prior battle it remains used.
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Radosław Michalak
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dypaca wrote:
1) I don't think that Mace's ability counts as a casualty. Blackfish protects against sword icons, skull icons, and abilities that gain swords. (also in the card set where this ability was first written, there was another card which said you take a casualty)

I disagree.
Blackfish protects from casualties from House card abilities, not only "abilities that gain swords".
And putting "take casualty" on Mace card would be confusing (destroy this casualty immediately or treat it as like casualty from scull).
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Martin Hall
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Exact wording on The Blackfish is "You do not take casualties in this combat from House card abilities, Combat icons or Tides of Battle cards". Having a FM killed by Mace Tyrell would otherwise be a casualty from the combat (it just would happen before the outcome of the combat is determined), which loss IMO is clearly prevented by The Blackfish.
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dypaca
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I guess I can see the argument that 'take casualties' is just a synonym for destroying units, and not a specific step in combat.

In that case it seems like basically the same issue as Stannis vs Doran. It depends on whether Blackfish's ability is a constant effect or something that is resolved in turn order.
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Martin Hall
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Personally, I just don't see any basis for thinking that The Blackfish text ability only applies once. It clearly states that you don't take casualties from House card abilities, as well as not from Combat icons and Tides of Battle cards. House card abilities can inflict casualties (such as Mace Tyrell) at other times than combat resolution (when icons and skulls are resolved), so it wouldn't make sense if it was limited to one occasion.

IMO the only losses you can take when you play the Blackfish are:
1) any SE or routed units in a losing army are still destroyed
2) any units that can't retreat due to supply restrictions are still destroyed.
Any other source for the loss of a unit seems to me that it would derive from a house card ability, a Combat icon (sword) or from a Tides of Battle skull.
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dypaca
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I just meant because the rules say that conflicting house card abilities are resolved in Iron Throne order. Like I said with Stannis/Doran though, I think alot of abilities can just be read as static abilties that are continuously in effect.

I'm just trying to tie down the resolution of these abilities to the rules text instead of just what feels right. I realize I'm probably overthinking things, but it really bothers me when these issues come up in the middle of a game. It had always seemed really obvious to me that Blackfish only applied to the "Casualties" step of combat, but then I discover that other people thought it was equally obvious that he applied to Mace.

Of course it's not going to come up often, as Stark and Tyrell are on opposite sides of the map, and (not having seen the expansion) Mace is the only card that inflicts a casualty outside the casualties step.
 
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Martin Hall
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I don't think Mace and Blackfish are really in conflict, since I take the view that:
1) cards are revealed simultaneously
2) "immediately" for Mace's ability means before combat is calculated, so that loss of FM would affect victory - it can't be before Blackfish because both in play together.

Hence Blackfish would stop Mace. There is in fact no other card in 2nd Ed where house card ability specifically inflicts a loss (although you might include cards such as Asha or Theon which can gain Sword icons through text abilities), so it would be very odd if this loss wasn't stopped when it is specifically mentioned.
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Michael Memal
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I might have this problem in a game I'm MODing (EGoT #1), and this is how I'm resolving it:

Pg. 19 of the rulebook:

1. Any “Ignore” or “Cancel” text abilities are first resolved in
the player order of the Iron Throne track.
2. Other conflicting text abilities are then resolved in the player
order of the Iron Throne track.
3. After the outcome of combat is determined, any “win/lose
this combat...” text abilities are resolved in the player order of
the Iron Throne track.

The person with the Blackfish card is higher, so he will not take casualties, but his footman will have to retreat before combat is resolved. If the person with the Mace Tyrell card was higher I would destroy the footman because of #2 above.
 
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roftie
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Memal25 wrote:
The person with the Blackfish card is higher, so he will not take casualties, but his footman will have to retreat before combat is resolved. If the person with the Mace Tyrell card was higher I would destroy the footman because of #2 above.

The Blackfish blocks Mace's text ability, regardless of which one is higher on the Iron Throne track.
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Amin
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Is there consensus on the Doran vs Stannis question?

Edit: Would the Faq ruling just entail going with the "immediately" cards first? Which means Blackfish wouldn't do much good vs Mace since the footman would be already dead?

Q: If a House card’s text ability says
“immediately...,” when is that card resolved?
A: After any “ignore” or “cancel” text abilities are
resolved, but before any other effects are resolved.

I know the reasoning why the word 'immediately' was used but it does match the FAQ.
 
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Matteo Angioletti
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Quote:
Both sides now combine their initial Combat Strength with any modifiers accumulated by playing House cards and using the Valyrian Steel Blade token. This final value is referred to as a player’s Final Combat Strength.
Below is a summary of what could contribute to each player’s final Combat Strength:
ɇ Initial Combat Strength *
ɇ The Combat Strength and applicable text abilities of the chosen House card
ɇ The Valyrian Steel Blade’s +1 Combat Strength (if available and used)
* Some House card text abilities may cause a player’s initial Combat Strength to be recalculated. For example, if the text of a revealed House card destroys an opponent’s Footman unit, the initial Combat Strength of that opponent is reduced by 1 during this step.


About Doran vs Stannis, I'd say Stannis card strenght is recalculated to match the relative change in the IT track. If Doran targets Fiefdoms, the new ranking decides the ties and the VSB may change owner before having the chance to be used. Targeting King's Court has no effect till the next planning phase.


Quote:
Casualties
Only the defeated player takes casualties in combat. Casualties are determined as follows:
1. Victor’s Sword Icon: Count the number of Swords icons on the victor’s House card.
2. Defeated Player’s Fortification Icons: Count the number of Fortification icons on the defeated player’s House card.


About Mace vs the Blackfish, by strict ruling I would not count Mace ability as inflicting a casualty, as quoted bold seems to imply.


On the other hand, the wording of the rules here is a bit lax, with "take casualty" and "destroy" being often used as exchangeable, and the Blackfish text seems to refer to Mace ability in particular.
 
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Sabzevarian wrote:
Edit: Would the Faq ruling just entail going with the "immediately" cards first? Which means Blackfish wouldn't do much good vs Mace since the footman would be already dead?

The Blackfish card text wrote:
You do not take casualties in this combat from House card abilities, Combat icons, or Tides of Battle cards.

Mace Tyrell is the only house card in the whole base 2nd edition game that has a card ability that can directly cause one to lose units (other card abilities that can potentially cause casualties, only add sword icons, which count as combat icons). The Blackfish specifically protects against card abilities; if it can't protect against Mace Tyrell, then mentioning house card abilities on the card is completely useless.

Trying to strictly follow the wording in the 2nd edition rules (in this case to have "destroy footman unit" not mean the same as "take casualty") is not a very good guide, as can be seen in this discussion regarding the meaning of the word opponent. In the end, one still needs to go back to 1st edition rulings to make sense of 2nd edition.
 
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Amin
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roftie wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:
Edit: Would the Faq ruling just entail going with the "immediately" cards first? Which means Blackfish wouldn't do much good vs Mace since the footman would be already dead?

The Blackfish card text wrote:
You do not take casualties in this combat from House card abilities, Combat icons, or Tides of Battle cards.

Mace Tyrell is the only house card in the whole base 2nd edition game that has a card ability that can directly cause one to lose units (other card abilities that can potentially cause casualties, only add sword icons, which count as combat icons). The Blackfish specifically protects against card abilities; if it can't protect against Mace Tyrell, then mentioning house card abilities on the card is completely useless.

Trying to strictly follow the wording in the 2nd edition rules (in this case to have "destroy footman unit" not mean the same as "take casualty") is not a very good guide, as can be seen in this discussion regarding the meaning of the word opponent. In the end, one still needs to go back to 1st edition rulings to make sense of 2nd edition.


Hey if you wanted to house rule it that way, that's fine. I would probably do the same as I agree with your argument, even though the Blackfish is a pretty damn good card even if it did not block Mace. I'm just saying that with the faq ruling the way it is, if you played with some other group that was purely textual with their rulings, then they have an argument for interpreting it that way.
 
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Sabzevarian wrote:
Hey if you wanted to house rule it that way, that's fine. I would probably do the same as I agree with your argument, even though the Blackfish is a pretty damn good card even if it did not block Mace. I'm just saying that with the faq ruling the way it is, if you played with some other group that was purely textual with their rulings, then they have an argument for interpreting it that way.

Yeah, I know, but even then, the Blackfish just says that you take no casualties in this combat, not no future casualties:

Tyrell (goes first because of the word "immediately"): Aha! Mace destroys your footman!
Stark: Well, Blackfish says I take no casualties this combat, so I guess that never happened...

When trying to understand rule changes in 2nd edition, I tend to first check the 1st edition to see what the original intent of a ruling was. In this case, the Blackfish's text ability stems from Eddard Stark in ASOS:

Quote:
You do not take any casualties in this battle regardless of Sword Icons. Ignore any House Card abilities that would cause you to lose casualties.

So this card ability originally had the word "ignore" in it when dealing with house card abilities, which would make it come into play before "immediately". Now did they remove "ignore" on purpose to change the function of the card somehow, or did they just rephrase the text to have the addition of the Tides of Battle option fit into the sentence structure more simply? The second explanation seems more likely to me, given that for a lot of rule changes in 2nd edition, the scope of their effects seem to have been overlooked during development.
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Amin
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roftie wrote:

Quote:
You do not take any casualties in this battle regardless of Sword Icons. Ignore any House Card abilities that would cause you to lose casualties.

So this card ability originally had the word "ignore" in it when dealing with house card abilities, which would make it come into play before "immediately". Now did they remove "ignore" on purpose to change the function of the card somehow, or did they just rephrase the text to have the addition of the Tides of Battle option fit into the sentence structure more simply? The second explanation seems more likely to me, given that for a lot of rule changes in 2nd edition, the scope of their effects seem to have been overlooked during development.


2nd explanation seems right to me.
 
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