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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: preliminary objective: destroy 2 cruisers rss

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Mikael Halonen
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Sometimes this objektive can be way to hard/impossible to fullfill. What do you think about changing it to: Destroy any two capital ships? Would it become to easy?
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That would be way to easy for 1 victory point. The objectives are meant to be hard.
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Mikael Halonen
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So how do we fix it?
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Scott M.
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It does not need to be fixed. Its an objective.

You dont have to kill the two cruisers in the same system, just two cruisers in the game game round.

I have had this objective before and was unable to fullfill it once due to being wiped out...

Some times you have to work around your objectives, youll be able to complete them or not, thats part of the game.
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Brian Petersen
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It also doesn't require combat to occur, so you can destroy them with PDS fire.

For ones that do require it, PDS fire can be a real bitch! Oh, sorry, I went ahead and killed my Carrier, with all its Fighters, so there aren't 3 ships here anymore.
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Necessary Evil
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Its considerably harder than the others for the same reason merciless is harder than the other secrets, it relies on the other players doing something (i.e. building cruisers) for you to even be able to complete.

If you start next to races who use carriers for x-port then it may be a few turns before you even have a target.

Typically I take this (and merciless) out of the game. So far we have not missed either card.

-M
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Necessary Evil
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JohanCarstensen wrote:
That would be way to easy for 1 victory point. The objectives are meant to be hard.


I disagree that prelim's are meant to be hard, and the thing that sucks most with this card is that it could take longer to achieve, and forces early combat. Putting you behind on your secret compared to others.

My point is not that it is to hard, just that it takes longer than the other prelim, and is not 100% under your control. You can not kill cruisers until someone builds them.

-M
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Scott M.
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I think one thing that is not being taken into account is the source of this card.

This card comes from the SE expansion. The focus of this expansion -IS- combat. All of the objectives Prelim , Secret and Secondary Objectives all focus around conflict unlike the Base set objectives.

So this needs to taken into account when using the Objectives from SE. If you want a standard game use Base otherwise use SE and be prepared for more combat.

Now on the other hand SoT swings the game back the other way with a more political game to offset the Combat oriented SE expansion.
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Scott Lewis
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TomBoombs wrote:
It also doesn't require combat to occur, so you can destroy them with PDS fire.

For ones that do require it, PDS fire can be a real bitch! Oh, sorry, I went ahead and killed my Carrier, with all its Fighters, so there aren't 3 ships here anymore.

Fortunately, PDS fire isn't mandatory If you were trying to get the "3 ships killed during combat" objective, and they only have 3 ships there, don't shoot your PDS at them


atraangelis wrote:
I think one thing that is not being taken into account is the source of this card.

This card comes from the SE expansion. The focus of this expansion -IS- combat. All of the objectives Prelim , Secret and Secondary Objectives all focus around conflict unlike the Base set objectives.

The preliminary objectives (such as "Enemy", the one for killing 2 Cruisers) comes from Shards, not Shattered Empire And not all the Preliminary Objectives are objective based.

I agree that Merciless is probably hardest to get, though not for the reason malloc states - it is just very hard to kill off ALL of a player's space docks in one round. But I've come very close to achieving it, and I think some of the fun with that one is TRYING to find a way to do it. It's oh-so-satisfying to pull something like that off
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Steve Williams
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I am also of the mind that nearly impossible secret objectives are okay. It adds a great sense of accomplishment and challenge to pull it off, and it's all part of the game's variance. Variance is an important part of TI3, like it or not.

Destroying two cruisers could be literally impossible, or you could start next door to the Mentak and grab it round 2. Having to build 6 PDS units could be an arbitrary cinch as you get to defend your privileged starting position, or it could take you half the game as you are forced to fight a neighbor in your starving arm of the galaxy to even have enough planets to put them on, let alone afford them.

Master of Ships is an "awful" Secret Objective. You have to have a huge fleet supply, all your eggs in one basket, and hold Mecatol Rex for at least 2 turns in a row. Having to cram all your CC's into fleet supply makes you slow and predictable. Ordinarily the sight of this Objective makes me sigh and figure out just how I'm going to have to instead complete almost every single public objective whilst simultaneously thwarting people with easier objectives because that's honestly a little bit easier.

At a tournament qualifier at Origins, I was randomly dealt both the Sardak N'orr and Master of Ships. Both of the first objectives to be revealed were technology based. No way around it, I was going to have to complete Master of Ships to have a chance in the game. Fortunately the N'orr's combat bonus makes destroyers and cruisers an excellent deterrent, and I was able to soldier through and claim the objective. A little bit of bartering and good faith action cards with the neighboring Naalu to keep one of my flanks slightly less vulnerable, coupled with diplomacy, and I was able to pull it off. A timely reveal of Imperium Rex later and I'd won the game with arguably the worst race and a brutal secret objective.

A hard fought victory is extremely satisfying, much more so than "Oh, by the way guys, I win" [not that being successfully subtle isn't its own sort of fun ;]
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David Gagner
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My group has changed this objective. We found that players in our group don't build cruisers as much because of the possible of this objective.

We changed it to read "destroy 4 points worth of cruisers and/or destroyers." So you could destroy 4 destroyers, 2 cruisers, or 2 destroyers and 1 cruiser.

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Brian Petersen
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The difficulty with killing ALL of a player's SDs off is that an experienced player will keep an SD in their HS, and at least 1 other system. The HS can sometimes be unexpectedly abandoned. However, outside HS, there is a 100% chance that there are a minimum of 2 GFs there at all times, and typically 2 PDS as well.

So not only do you have to take someone's HS, but you also have to take another production center of their's before they build another one that you can't reach.

Toss in Leaders, and there's likely to be a dang Diplomat on 1 of the SDs, and you're S.O.L. because they can build another SD anywhere else, or be truly sore losers and scuttle it before you can take it next round.

In my game group, "destroy 2 cruisers" has been won on defense more often than attack.

And Scott, sometimes you fire 4 PDS at 2 CVs, 2 CAs, and 8 FFs and 2 of the shots hit. Your opponent could have done what sane people do and have 2 CVs, 2 CAs, and 6 FFs and try and destroy some of your ships while you annihilate theirs with a huge fleet equipped with ADT+Hylar V, or they can bring it down to 2 CAs, and just hit you a couple times and deprive you of the VP.
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Scott Lewis
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TomBoombs wrote:

And Scott, sometimes you fire 4 PDS at 2 CVs, 2 CAs, and 8 FFs and 2 of the shots hit. Your opponent could have done what sane people do and have 2 CVs, 2 CAs, and 6 FFs and try and destroy some of your ships while you annihilate theirs with a huge fleet equipped with ADT+Hylar V, or they can bring it down to 2 CAs, and just hit you a couple times and deprive you of the VP.

If you need the points, you can choose not to fire them. If there's any chance the opponent will be vindictive and destroy their Carrier to deny you the points, it's a risk you take by firing them

If you are going up against that fleet and REALLY want the points, you'd be better served just bringing in an extra couple ships and relying on the battle than risking the player pulling a stunt like that.
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muthrali the relentless
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erm..really guys?

I can see the point that the objective is kinda dependent on what someone else builds, so in theory it would be harder to plan, but seriously, 2 cruisers? In my games we typically run out of cruiserpieces Not only do they make up for the bulb of our fleets for their power/cost ratio, everytime we can produce and have like 1 or 2 planets unused, we buy a cruiser just to not let that planet be unused that round.

I do note that my games are 99% 3 player games, so resources/planets/fleetsizes per player are more likely to be more abundant than 6 playergames i suppose.
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Brian Petersen
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In my games, even though cruisers are built often, they are escorting fighter screens, and behind enemy lines. Some players in my group also build all the Space Mines (3 activations per round from Round 3 onward). They only deter the other players who do the same thing, though.
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Mikael Halonen wrote:
Sometimes this objektive can be way to hard/impossible to fullfill. What do you think about changing it to: Destroy any two capital ships? Would it become to easy?


Okay, look here and stop whine about the Enemy objective, there is a much worse case: Traitor - I have attacked a player this round with whom I have a trade agreement.

So if nobody wants to trade with you, you can't fulfill this objective. By the way the chance that nobody during the game have any cruisers are 0.001%.

It's a fact that the objectives should be hard and that you are not always going to be able to fulfill them. Do something else like take all the public objectives or crash you fleet into your archenemy from last game.
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Mikael Halonen
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There is a difference betwen the two. You can convince players that they want to trade with you, there is a logic behind that. You cant tell others to build cruisers because by doing that you have practically revealed your objective.

00001%? Do I want to know where you got that from?
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Scott Lewis
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I can only speak for me, but I have yet to play in a single game of TI3 where cruisers weren't widely used by at least half the players (and usually all the players).
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There are 10 out of 17 races that starts with Cruisers. In a 6 player game you will be almost certain that there are at least one or two players that has a race starting with at least one Cruiser. So even if nobody builds them there will at least be a chance. With the Traitor Objective there might not even be a chance.
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Mikael Halonen
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If people wants cruisers or not varies from game to game. Last game I spammed cruisers(like I often do because I love them) but my opponents built a total of 2 cruisers! Guess who had the enemy objective? I was only lucky to be able to finnish my prelim!
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Mikael Halonen
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There is always a chance someone will want to trade with you. In every game you play there are always trade contracts, there are not always cruisers.
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Jeff S
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Mikael Halonen wrote:
There is a difference betwen the two. You can convince players that they want to trade with you, there is a logic behind that. You cant tell others to build cruisers because by doing that you have practically revealed your objective.

00001%? Do I want to know where you got that from?


I just did the math and in a 4-player game the odds of your opponents all having races that start without cruisers is 5.15% and it drops to .34% in a 6-player game. That they would then also never build cruisers pushes it even closer to zero.
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Mikael Halonen
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Several races starts with a lone cruiser. So the percentage should be somewhat higher than that. While the probability for more cruisers being built is high in most groups(i pressume?) we can't really count on that.

The conclusion is that this prelim can range from easy(if you are brave/stupid enough to pick a fight with mentak) to very hard or even impossible. In the very hard/impossible scenario you can find yourself with a 3 points disadvantage and will probably not win the game.

Actually I dislike all prelims but this is by far the worst.
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Scott Lewis
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Mikael Halonen wrote:
Actually I dislike all prelims but this is by far the worst.

I find the 5 Dreadnoughts one to be the "worst" from my experience. It's obviously doable, but is VERY expensive, and often takes at least 3 or 4 game rounds to complete (unless you get very lucky or are the L1Z1X). That's half the game, and most other players have achieved theirs long before.
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I find the 5 Dreadnoughts one to be the "worst" from my experience.

I got that objective last round and there was no problem to fulfill that and win the game after running over my neighbor in the other end of the galaxy. My conclusion is that the preliminary objectives are definitely achievable.
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