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Imperial 2030» Forums » Rules

Subject: Naval Encounter including Multiple Countries ... rss

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Mark Ashcraft
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We've got a situation in a current game that is a bit unusual ...

The US controls the N Atlantic, 1 navy present. Also in the N Atlantic are 2 BR navies & 1 RU navy, which had moved in as "Friendly" (At the time of their maneuvers, I had control of US, BR, and RU, and moved all the navies in as defense against the EU naval force that was being amassed).

EU has 4 potential navies to move into the sea zone -- 3 from London and 1 from the Mediterranean. The owner of EU has declared that he is moving the 3 navies in from London, killing the US navy but not being hostile toward the other 2 navies.

He's thinking he can kill the US navy, not kill the RU or BR navies, & claim the tax chip for EU since both the BR & RU navies are "friendly". I say that if you enter hostile, you kill other countries navies 1 for 1. That is what is says in the rules, but it doesn't specifically detail naval battles of this magnitude with this many countries involved ...

Thoughts?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Tax chips are only claimed when all the units in an area are the same colour.
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Mark Ashcraft
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clearclaw wrote:
Tax chips are only claimed when all the units in an area are the same colour.


I think I agree with the nature of what your saying (assuming your statement isn't saying that Friendly Movement through a claimed zone would negate a tax chip claim), but it doesn't address the key question I was trying to put forward ...

Can a group of military units go into a zone that has multiple other countries present & choose to be hostile toward some and friendly towards others?

If the answer to that is "yes", then we would need to continue the discussion as to how to resolve the tax chip status.
 
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Romain Jacques
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My understanding is that when you enter a new territory you can say I am hostile to this country but friendly with the others. But it is not the last word. All countries present in the territory have to say if they are hostile or friendly to the newcomer, but cannot change their status between them.

In which order the combat is done after this is not clear to me. Is it the newcomer or the defender that decide which unit is lost?

In your example, When EU moves her first fleet it says I am hostile to US but friendly to the others, if Brazil says I am hostile to EU, is it Brazil or US that is loosing his fleet?

But one thing is clear, units have to be moved one by one. So you are not moving all four units at one time. You move one unit, solve the combat if any, move another one, solve the combat, etc.
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Matti Matilainen
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crashman4499 wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Tax chips are only claimed when all the units in an area are the same colour.


Can a group of military units go into a zone that has multiple other countries present & choose to be hostile toward some and friendly towards others?

If the answer to that is "yes", then we would need to continue the discussion as to how to resolve the tax chip status.


The answer is yes and, like J C Lawrence said, the tax chip doesn't change ownership because all the units are not the same colour.

English rule book page 10:
A flag remains in a region until the region is
occupied exclusively by another nation. As the
result of a battle, it may happen that an inactive
nation winds up occupying the region exclusively;
in this case the previous flag is removed and
replaced by a flag of that nation.

 
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Mark Ashcraft
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Romain wrote:
But one thing is clear, units have to be moved one by one. So you are not moving all four units at one time. You move one unit, solve the combat if any, move another one, solve the combat, etc.


Actually, this is new to me. It was my understanding that you moved ALL naval units at once, the ALL army units at once. I must dig into that further.
 
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J C Lawrence
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crashman4499 wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Tax chips are only claimed when all the units in an area are the same colour.


I think I agree with the nature of what your saying (assuming your statement isn't saying that Friendly Movement through a claimed zone would negate a tax chip claim), but it doesn't address the key question I was trying to put forward ...


In order for a tax chip to change hands all the units present in an area must be of a different colour than the chip already there.

Quote:
Can a group of military units go into a zone that has multiple other countries present & choose to be hostile toward some and friendly towards others?


Absolutely.

Quote:
If the answer to that is "yes", then we would need to continue the discussion as to how to resolve the tax chip status.


No, it is trivially simple. The tax chip changes state only when all the units in the are the same colour and that colour is different than the colour of the tax chip already in the area. Who is friendly or not is irrelevant.

Simple example:

- Red moves into the area and claims the tax chip.
- Blue and Green also move into the area.
- Red moves out of the area. The area remains claimed by Red as there are multiple colours of units in the area.
- Green attacks blue and both units are removed, leaving the area empty. The area remains red as there are no units in the area.
- Green moves a unit into the area and claims it as there are only green units in the area.
- Red moves back into the area. Nothing changes as there are Green and Red units in the area.
- Black moves into the area. Again nothing changes.
- Green and Black leave the area. The area becomes Red as that's the only colour of unit left there.
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J C Lawrence
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Romain wrote:
In which order the combat is done after this is not clear to me. Is it the newcomer or the defender that decide which unit is lost?


The moving country either declares that they are peaceful to all units already in the area, or selects a specific unit and attacks it as part of their movement. If they declare hostility, then both units are instantly removed without recourse. If they declare themselves friendly then the countries already present in the area, in clockwise order from the moving country must also declare whether they are hostile or friendly to the entering unit. If any unit declares hostility, that unit and the moving unit are immediately removed without recourse.

Quote:
In your example, When EU moves her first fleet it says I am hostile to US but friendly to the others, if Brazil says I am hostile to EU, is it Brazil or US that is loosing his fleet?


USA loses a fleet.

The same pattern is true for armies.
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Romain Jacques
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clearclaw wrote:
If they declare themselves friendly then the countries already present in the area, in clockwise order from the moving country must also declare whether they are hostile or friendly to the entering unit.

Just to make sure, when you say clockwise, it is not the player order (how they are seated around the table) but the country order (which country is playing next), right?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Correct.
 
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J C Lawrence
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crashman4499 wrote:
Actually, this is new to me. It was my understanding that you moved ALL naval units at once, the ALL army units at once. I must dig into that further.


That would not work due to armies not being able to convoy over ships that had been sunk.
 
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Riku Koskinen
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clearclaw wrote:

If they declare themselves friendly then the countries already present in the area, in clockwise order from the moving country must also declare whether they are hostile or friendly to the entering unit.


Where does it say it's in the clockwise order? All I could find from the rules were these (page 8):
If the invader wants to stay friendly, however, he has to offer the opportunity for a battle to each other fleet present in the sea region. Therefore the other fleets are asked one after another if they want to do battle.

And in an example below the previous quote:
If Blue does not want to do battle, the blue fleet moves to the Caribbean Sea and asks if anyone wants to fight. If, directly after this move, neither Red nor Green want a battle, all three fleets remain in the Caribbean Sea.

This is pretty vague. It doesn't help that in the second quote it says "neither Red nor Green", in that order, when in fact if Blue moves the turn order is Green and then Red. What does mean "the other fleets are asked one after another"? How about "asks if anyone wants to fight"? We've interpreted it so that the invading force asks them one after another, thus choosing the order.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Padish wrote:
Where does it say it's in the clockwise order?


A later clarification by Mac Gerdts somewhere in the Imperial fora (this question has come up multiple times before).
 
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Riku Koskinen
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Ok, thanks. I've never played the first Imperial nor visited its forums. Proceeding in turn sequence makes sense, and we'll start doing it that way. Not that this situation comes up very often
 
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