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Drew1365 wrote:
But how do you summarize the scandal in 30 seconds?


Republicans are really pissed that a Democrat is in office and wanted an excuse to make hay.

Hey! I did it in fifteen!
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mightygodking wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
But how do you summarize the scandal in 30 seconds?


Republicans are really pissed that a Democrat is in office and wanted an excuse to make hay.

Hey! I did it in fifteen!


The scandal is legit, Christopher. That's undeniable. It was a badly planned and totally botched operation and it makes everyone involved look really stupid. The contempt vote is some bullshit though, since by all accounts the DOJ has been very cooperative with Issa and co. in providing whatever they want. I think the administration will welcome it--the contempt vote is largely being pushed by that ultra-conservative group of backbenchers who rode the Tea Party wave into office, and this whole thing seems to be making the more experienced GOP reps a little uncomfortable. It's a chance for the administration to go toe-to-toe with a group of Republicans who are very unpopular with everyone but the most conservative voters. That's a gift-wrapped opportunity for the Obama election machine to make Darrel Issa look like the face of today's GOP. No sane Republican wants that. The party leadership has already had to rein him in once on this thing, I doubt they're happy about having to do it again.
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Drew1365 wrote:
And now I'm hearing that Obama has asserted executive privilege on the documents sought by Congress. This is the first time the President has inserted himself into the scandal.

To quote the Veep: "This is a big f'n deal"


Bingo! Like I said, this is a huge opportunity for the President to make Republicans look bad. And exactly why Boehner and the House leadership wanted Issa to back down. Instead of negotiating and getting the documents they wanted, they've now got the administration throwing their full confidence behind Holder.

This whole thing is political theater, but I don't see how this outcome is a win for the GOP. Instead of looking like the good guys blowing the whistle on a stupid operation, they look ineffectual and petulant.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
The scandal is legit, Christopher. That's undeniable. It was a badly planned and totally botched operation and it makes everyone involved look really stupid. The contempt vote is some bullshit though, since by all accounts the DOJ has been very cooperative with Issa and co. in providing whatever they want.


Hence Republicans making hay. A government fuckup is a government fuckup; but they're screaming that Holder lied to Congress because he said he'd never heard of it before it became a thing and it turned out somebody sent him a memo about it once. In comparison there was incontrovertible proof that Alberto Gonzales lied to Congress extensively about the domestic wiretap program. I don't remember Republicans saying that that was a big deal. Other than Arlen Specter, who hardly counts.
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For news on this, not a link to FOLLOW FOX NEWS OPINION by John R. Lott, Jr. is a FoxNews.com contributor. He is an economist and co-author of "Debacle: Obama's War on Jobs and Growth and What We Can Do Now to Regain Our Future." or a report by a website reporting on a network station...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57456848-503544/white...

What I don't understand is

Quote:
Executive privilege enables the Justice Department to withhold documents from Congress, even if Congress has issued a subpoena, as Rep. Issa has.


In a letter to Issa sent later Tuesday evening, Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote, "We regret that the Committee rejected our proposal. Our offer would have provided the Committee with unprecedented access to these documents, many of which are not covered by the Committee's subpoenas in this matter."


Why a subpoena if they can't get the documents and why make them issue a subpoena if they were just going to give up the documents anyway? If it's political theater, it's makes both side look stupid.
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mightygodking wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
The scandal is legit, Christopher. That's undeniable. It was a badly planned and totally botched operation and it makes everyone involved look really stupid. The contempt vote is some bullshit though, since by all accounts the DOJ has been very cooperative with Issa and co. in providing whatever they want.


Hence Republicans making hay. A government fuckup is a government fuckup; but they're screaming that Holder lied to Congress because he said he'd never heard of it before it became a thing and it turned out somebody sent him a memo about it once. In comparison there was incontrovertible proof that Alberto Gonzales lied to Congress extensively about the domestic wiretap program. I don't remember Republicans saying that that was a big deal. Other than Arlen Specter, who hardly counts.


Yeah, yeah. I don't even consider it hypocrisy anymore for one side or the other to jump on their opponents over something they ignored with their own people. Both sides do it, they're all totally shameless and transparent about it, and at this point you'd be a fool to expect anything different. So of course they want Holder's head on a platter. That doesn't mean they don't have some legitimate points about the whole operation.

I'm guessing part of the reason the GOP leadership wants this to go away is that they're afraid when all the details come out it won't be as easy to actually pin it on Obama as it is to make insinuations about it being his fault. I think any experienced politician would tell you that a "fuck-up" like this is more useful before the details come out than after. Unlike a sex scandal or some personal controversy the details are bound to expose more ineffectual bureaucracy than they'll implicate specific opponents.
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Donald wrote:
For news on this, not a link to FOLLOW FOX NEWS OPINION by John R. Lott, Jr. is a FoxNews.com contributor. He is an economist and co-author of "Debacle: Obama's War on Jobs and Growth and What We Can Do Now to Regain Our Future." or a report by a website reporting on a network station...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57456848-503544/white...

What I don't understand is

Quote:
Executive privilege enables the Justice Department to withhold documents from Congress, even if Congress has issued a subpoena, as Rep. Issa has.


In a letter to Issa sent later Tuesday evening, Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote, "We regret that the Committee rejected our proposal. Our offer would have provided the Committee with unprecedented access to these documents, many of which are not covered by the Committee's subpoenas in this matter."


Why a subpoena if they can't get the documents and why make them issue a subpoena if they were just going to give up the documents anyway? If it's political theater, it's makes both side look stupid.


The "whys" are obvious. Issa wants to go for the throat with Holder, because Issa is a ham-handed moron. The administration wants to make it look like they tried to cooperate but were met with unreasonable demands, which is exactly what this looks like.

As usual in D.C., none of this was about righting a wrong or fixing the system. It's a contest to see who can embarrass the other side more. Why are we surprised?
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The thousands of people in jail on minor drug crime say boo-freakin-hoo.
The thousands of convicted felons from minor drug crime who can't get decent jobs say boo-freakin-hoo.
The families of loved ones who have been found be-headed in the desert say boo-freakin-hoo.
The thousands of people living under the heels of corrupt police, corrupt governments and brutal cartels all over central america say boo-freakin-hoo.

The drug war just keeps churning out victims. This committee should be prioritizing ending the whole suffering multiplying mess. It's such a dysfunctional piece of shit that you are going to have government screw ups like this all the time and people trying to cover their own asses when it blows up their faces.

Stupid policy begets stupid programs begets stupid actions begets general stupidity. End the policy (The Drug War) and the whole rest of the causation chain disappears.

If Holder goes down, and if the allegations are true he should, then it's time to clean house in general because ever since Vietnam the U.S. government has been stumbling through the drug war like a giant keystone cop on the take.
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Drew1365 wrote:
And now I'm hearing that Obama has asserted executive privilege on the documents sought by Congress. This is the first time the President has inserted himself into the scandal.

To quote the Veep: "This is a big f'n deal"


It's interesting to see the President claiming executive privilege regarding an operation he says he and Holder knew nothing about.

As to the claims that the DOJ is cooperating fully, that claim comes from the DOJ, so I think I will take it with a grain of salt.

Holder has lied to Congress. Alberto Gonzales lied to Congress. So let's forget about this mess because two wrongs make a right.

TheChin! wrote:
The thousands of people in jail on minor drug crime say boo-freakin-hoo.
The thousands of convicted felons from minor drug crime who can't get decent jobs say boo-freakin-hoo.
The families of loved ones who have been found be-headed in the desert say boo-freakin-hoo.
The thousands of people living under the heels of corrupt police, corrupt governments and brutal cartels all over central america say boo-freakin-hoo.

The drug war just keeps churning out victims. This committee should be prioritizing ending the whole suffering multiplying mess. It's such a dysfunctional piece of shit that you are going to have government screw ups like this all the time and people trying to cover their own asses when it blows up their faces.

Stupid policy begets stupid programs begets stupid actions begets general stupidity. End the policy (The Drug War) and the whole rest of the causation chain disappears.

If Holder goes down, and if the allegations are true he should, then it's time to clean house in general because ever since Vietnam the U.S. government has been stumbling through the drug war like a giant keystone cop on the take.


Amen!
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It's amazing that any RSP Libs could defend this. Well, now that I think about it, it's no more amazing than some of the other crap RSP Libs are apologists for when it comes to this criminal administration.

Executive Privilege pretty much indicates guilt in this case. Why use it if you don't have something to hide? It says "we knew all along and we ain't telling you voters cause you don't need to know". That's what Nixon and Clinton did. The only instance in my life that made sense was when Eisenhower used it to put the brakes on Joe McCarthy. Bush used it regarding Pat Tillman and (I think) something to do with Janet Reno and the mob.

Anyone who thinks the voting public will somehow translate this into a win for Obama is seriously deranged. All the RNC ads have to do is show a picture of the dead Border Patrol agent, a clip of Holder looking like he was caught with his hands down his pants and none of this WH idiocy will matter. Best thing Dear Leader could do would be to throw Holder to the wolves and put as much distance as he can from him before the election. It worked for him when he sacrificed his 20-year spiritual leader and BFF Reverend Wright, so why not this incompetent AG?
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Here we go.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Eric Holder was apparently supposed to "negotiate" yesterday for a release of the documents the Committee wanted. He agreed to release a tiny portion of the documents but only if the House promised to shut down the entire investigation.


Cite your facts, as that's the opposite of what I've read. I read that Holder asked for congress to drop the contempt charge in exchange for the release of the documents, not the investigation itself. Those are very different things. I also read that he offered to brief the committee on the supposedly sensitive documents, not to withhold them entirely.

Quote:
The administration has always insisted this was a rogue, low-level operation. If so, why would the President claim executive privilege? The scandal is already bad enough. Unlike Watergate, we have dead bodies everywhere as a result. Is it even worse than we know?


I just told you that. They invoked privilege because it makes the other side look stubborn and stupid. No more, no less.

Quote:
The House Committee is apparently moving forward with the contempt vote.
So what happens next? If the Committee finds Holder in Contempt then it goes to the full House. If the full House finds Holder in Contempt it is turned over to the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia for prosecution.

The U.S. attorney reports to Holder.


As I understand it the full House is extremely unlikely to find Holder in contempt regardless. If they do and he is prosecuted and found guilty, (both of which rarely happen in contempt of congress cases) he faces the life-changing penalty of "not less than $100 and not more than $1000" in fines. Political. Effing. Theater.

Someone quote this so I know Drew sees it, por favor.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
It's amazing that any RSP Libs could defend this. Well, now that I think about it, it's no more amazing than some of the other crap RSP Libs are apologists for when it comes to this criminal administration.

Executive Privilege pretty much indicates guilt in this case. Why use it if you don't have something to hide? It says "we knew all along and we ain't telling you voters cause you don't need to know". That's what Nixon and Clinton did. The only instance in my life that made sense was when Eisenhower used it to put the brakes on Joe McCarthy. Bush used it regarding Pat Tillman and (I think) something to do with Janet Reno and the mob.

Anyone who thinks the voting public will somehow translate this into a win for Obama is seriously deranged. All the RNC ads have to do is show a picture of the dead Border Patrol agent, a clip of Holder looking like he was caught with his hands down his pants and none of this WH idiocy will matter. Best thing Dear Leader could do would be to throw Holder to the wolves and put as much distance as he can from him before the election. It worked for him when he sacrificed his 20-year spiritual leader and BFF Reverend Wright, so why not this incompetent AG?


I guess the Obama administration will have to kiss the DW Tripp vote goodbye?

No one is saying the scandal isn't a scandal. It's clearly not as big a deal as you want it to be, and you and I both know damn well that if the roles were reversed the Dems would be screaming bloody murder and the Republicans would be claiming it was all a political farce. You continually confuse me because you have a really good sense of what's bullshit and what's legitimate in these situations of political manipulation and grandstanding, but you seem to only be able to apply that bullshit meter to one side. I don't get it.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:

Someone quote this so I know Drew sees it, por favor.


Happy to help.
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DWTripp wrote:
Executive Privilege pretty much indicates guilt in this case.


Well, yes, if you don't realize that what Issa is asking for at this point are documents that are in respect to ongoing criminal investigations beyond Fast and Furious itself, the release/publication of which A) would essentially pre-determine said investigations to fail (because when you publish the details of a criminal investigation, oddly enough the criminals being investigated will take steps to avoid prosecution), B) are not subject to Congressional subpoena, and C) the release of which would represent an infringement on the separation of powers doctrine since Congress isn't supposed to be able to exert pressure on how the federal government conducts its prosecution cases, for reasons which should be staggeringly obvious.

But I suppose you have accounted for all of that and used your secret conserva-powers to determine that it's all a conspiracy! THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER LAYER!
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mightygodking wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Executive Privilege pretty much indicates guilt in this case.


Well, yes, if you don't realize that what Issa is asking for at this point are documents that are in respect to ongoing criminal investigations beyond Fast and Furious itself, the release/publication of which A) would essentially pre-determine said investigations to fail (because when you publish the details of a criminal investigation, oddly enough the criminals being investigated will take steps to avoid prosecution), B) are not subject to Congressional subpoena, and C) the release of which would represent an infringement on the separation of powers doctrine since Congress isn't supposed to be able to exert pressure on how the federal government conducts its prosecution cases, for reasons which should be staggeringly obvious.

But I suppose you have accounted for all of that and used your secret conserva-powers to determine that it's all a conspiracy! THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER LAYER!


Your status as an apologist for the Obama-Holder scandal is duly noted. No doubt, if you had been alive and had access to Google when Nixon invoked EP regarding Watergate you would have defended him also.

Ripped from today's news news!:

Issa is particularly interested in seeing documents that shed light on why the Department of Justice decided to withdraw a February 2011 letter sent to Congress denying allegations of gunwalking.
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I think he meant all of it.

djgutierrez77 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Eric Holder was apparently supposed to "negotiate" yesterday for a release of the documents the Committee wanted. He agreed to release a tiny portion of the documents but only if the House promised to shut down the entire investigation.


Cite your facts, as that's the opposite of what I've read. I read that Holder asked for congress to drop the contempt charge in exchange for the release of the documents, not the investigation itself. Those are very different things. I also read that he offered to brief the committee on the supposedly sensitive documents, not to withhold them entirely.

Quote:
The administration has always insisted this was a rogue, low-level operation. If so, why would the President claim executive privilege? The scandal is already bad enough. Unlike Watergate, we have dead bodies everywhere as a result. Is it even worse than we know?


I just told you that. They invoked privilege because it makes the other side look stubborn and stupid. No more, no less.

Quote:
The House Committee is apparently moving forward with the contempt vote.
So what happens next? If the Committee finds Holder in Contempt then it goes to the full House. If the full House finds Holder in Contempt it is turned over to the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia for prosecution.

The U.S. attorney reports to Holder.


As I understand it the full House is extremely unlikely to find Holder in contempt regardless. If they do and he is prosecuted and found guilty, (both of which rarely happen in contempt of congress cases) he faces the life-changing penalty of "not less than $100 and not more than $1000" in fines. Political. Effing. Theater.

Someone quote this so I know Drew sees it, por favor.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Your status as an apologist for the Obama-Holder scandal is duly noted. No doubt, if you had been alive and had access to Google when Nixon invoked EP regarding Watergate you would have defended him also.


Nixon invoked EP in the case of a criminal prosecution of his aides. It wasn't quite the same thing.

The Tillman thing you referenced during Bush is more analagous: it was a politically embarrassing thing (Tillman being killed in a friendly-fire incident) but the executive's involvement in the matter also ended up with them discussing some things about Afghanistan which they couldn't/shouldn't/didn't want to disclose to Congress out of hand, so they invoked EP. They didn't invoke EP because Bush ordered a hit on Tillman. They invoked EP because there was a valid reason to do so, and because it let them thumb their nose at the opposing party.

The same thing is going on here. Holder's already disclosed literally thousands of pages' worth of documents about Fast and Furious to Issa and the committee: there is not a whole lot that is can be kept back from Issa at this point about the operation. (Which is certainly a fuckup, but fucking up is not, in and of itself, contempt.) Issa isn't concerned about that: he wants to "prove" that Holder lied to Congress, and this latest tidbit you've unearthed via whomever is just more of the same. Holder wouldn't get convicted for perjury; he'd just say "I forgot about that" or "I misremembered" or "I was thinking of something else," or, quite possibly, "the DoJ is a big-ass department and I don't oversee literally every letter we send out, so it's quite possible for someone to have written it and for me not to have known about it."

So this is a lot of flap about nothing, but it gives people of a certain ilk the chance to type "Obama-Holder scandal" as many times as possible, and that's all they really want to do.
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mightygodking wrote:

So this is a lot of flap about nothing, but it gives people of a certain ilk the chance to type "Obama-Holder scandal" as many times as possible, and that's all they really want to do.


Eric Holder has already retracted three "statements of fact" that he testified to in front of congress. If it looks like shit and smells like shit do you actually have to taste it to accept that it is shit?

I don't, but hey, go right ahead and take a big bite.
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DWTripp wrote:
Ripped from today's news news!:

Issa is particularly interested in seeing documents that shed light on why the Department of Justice decided to withdraw a February 2011 letter sent to Congress denying allegations of gunwalking.


Because they found that it was not accurate. Investigating why they withdrew a letter that they later found to be incorrect has nothing to do with why this happened in the first place.

Stupid shit happened and I'd like to know why. But this "investigation" is just an excuse to embarass the administration. When committee members have tried to schedule witnesses that were involved in the actual operation, they have been denied because Issa doesn't actually care about what happened, just what he can get out of it politically.
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DWTripp wrote:
mightygodking wrote:

So this is a lot of flap about nothing, but it gives people of a certain ilk the chance to type "Obama-Holder scandal" as many times as possible, and that's all they really want to do.


Eric Holder has already retracted three "statements of fact" that he testified to in front of congress. If it looks like shit and smells like shit do you actually have to taste it to accept that it is shit?

I don't, but hey, go right ahead and take a big bite.


You're confusing "the DOJ did something dumb" with "Obama will be impeached for personally executing a border patrol agent," Tripp. No one (not even MGK, your liberal alter-ego) is arguing that the Fast and Furious operation was stupid and terrible and should die in a fire. It's not going to be the end of Holder, or of Obama, or of anything at all. The Republicans will embarrass the Democrats with it as long as they can, and then everyone will forget about it.

You know, like every other bureaucratic scandal in the history of politics.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Eric Holder has already retracted three "statements of fact" that he testified to in front of congress.


Cite? I've seen one correction/clarification (he stated that he "misunderstood the question" when he said he wasn't aware of Fast and Furious and instead meant he wasn't aware of the tactics used). I haven't seen any others.
 
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rshipley wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Ripped from today's news news!:

Issa is particularly interested in seeing documents that shed light on why the Department of Justice decided to withdraw a February 2011 letter sent to Congress denying allegations of gunwalking.


Because they found that it was not accurate. Investigating why they withdrew a letter that they later found to be incorrect has nothing to do with why this happened in the first place.

Stupid shit happened and I'd like to know why. But this "investigation" is just an excuse to embarass the administration. When committee members have tried to schedule witnesses that were involved in the actual operation, they have been denied because Issa doesn't actually care about what happened, just what he can get out of it politically.


Apologist status duly noted.

Ya'll ought to use your top-notch Google-fu to look up what Dear Leader Obama said about executive privilege before he was elected. He was down on GW big time for using it. Funny shit. But still shit.
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jackolantern wrote:
It's interesting to see the President claiming executive privilege regarding an operation he says he and Holder knew nothing about.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but "Executive Privilege" has nothing to do with the "who" and everything to do with the "how." The materials that the executive branch, its officers, and its employees generate are typically shielded from things like subpoenas. This is to provide for free discussion of alternatives and options, exploration of different impacts that a particular policy could have, etc. So whether the President was ever briefed isn't particularly material to the use of executive privilege.

It's not only common for the executive branch to invoke privilege, it's particularly common in cases like this one where there's more than a whiff of partisanship to the investigation in question.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Ya'll ought to use your top-notch Google-fu to look up what Dear Leader Obama said about executive privilege before he was elected. He was down on GW big time for using it. Funny shit. But still shit.


I found one:

Prez wrote:
In an interview on CNN's Larry King Live, Obama said there's been "a tendency on the part of this administration to try to hide behind exec privilege every time there's something a little shaky that's taking place."


And he's gone longer into his administration without using it than any president in the last three decades. In this case, he avoided using it until Issa threatened Holder with contempt of Congress. My understanding is that the executive priviledge claim makes it so that the US attorney does not have to act on any contempt charge, so it seems to have served a specific purpose here.

In addition, the priviledge has only been claimed for documents that date well after Fast and Furious actually happened. There is no effort to deny Congress anything that relates to what happened and why regarding the botched operation itself. If Issa and his committee were trying to figure that out on an impartial basis, I'd be cheering them on.

The article below has copies of the request for and granting of executive priviledge in this case if anyone is interested in the actual facts:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/obama-executive-pri...
 
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