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Eclipse» Forums » Rules

Subject: How to pay upkeep ?? rss

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Dominic Lauke
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Just to get clear:

There is amount of:
- Upkeep
- Income
- Stockpile money
- Stockpile resources & science

1. If Upkeep is greater then the Income ... what do I have / what i am allowed to do first to pay the upkeep:

- use Stockpile money
- take of an influence token from a hex
- use Stockpile resources or science

and if possible please spin this topic out ... i mean if the solution of 1. is not enough, what do I have to use next ... and so on


 
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Arne Hoffmann
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Hi Dominic,

The way I understand the rules is:

You adjust your stockpile money according to the difference of upkeep vs income. In the case that income is less than upkeep you can either lower money on your track or trade any other ressource for it instead - this is always an option. Influence disks can to my understanding only be removed from the board if you went bankrupt here, so if your money would end below zero.
 
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Deckard Cole
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You determine the cost to be paid by subtracting the upkeep cost from your income and adjust your money storage marker up or down accordingly.
If you can't afford to pay it all you need to do as follows...

First you adjust the marker as low as you can without going below zero (obviously). Then you can BOTH swap other resources for money at a 2:1 ratio (Assuming you are playing Terran. Some aliens have higher ratios.) AND/OR remove an influence token from a hex (or hexes) until you can meet the cost. It's your choice.

I doesn't state that you are limited to one option or the other and if you really miscalculate you may have to do both.
 
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Ben P.
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This is how we understood it: If (Income + Upkeep + Money Storage < 0) you must trade in other resources if available or return influence discs from the board.
But you are only allowed to return influence discs until Income + Upkeep + Money Storage is equal to or more than 0. Meaning you are not allowed to return more influence discs than needed to pay the cost with your Money Storage (i.e. you have to pay with money whenever you can). But you are allowed to return more influence discs then necessary to pay the costs with your combined money+resource storage (i.e. you are not forced to trade in everything you have first). Can anyone confirm these assumptions?
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Deckard Cole
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cuazzel wrote:
This is how we understood it: If (Income + Upkeep + Money Storage < 0) you must trade in other resources if available or return influence discs from the board.
But you are only allowed to return influence discs until Income + Upkeep + Money Storage is equal to or more than 0. Meaning you are not allowed to return more influence discs than needed to pay the cost with your Money Storage (i.e. you have to pay with money whenever you can). But you are allowed to return more influence discs then necessary to pay the costs with your combined money+resource storage (i.e. you are not forced to trade in everything you have first). Can anyone confirm these assumptions?


A clarification I did not make. You can't use this as an exploit to clear all the planets you don't want and get your money back.
You have to stop when the minimum balance is met as I understand it.

EDIT: You also DO NOT have to cash in all other resources first, you can combine the two or just use one method. You could remove multiple influence tokens instead of cashing in science and materials.
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Dominic Lauke
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cuazzel wrote:
This is how we understood it: If (Income + Upkeep + Money Storage less then 0) you must trade in other resources if available or return influence discs from the board.
But you are only allowed to return influence discs until Income + Upkeep + Money Storage is equal to or more than 0. Meaning you are not allowed to return more influence discs than needed to pay the cost with your Money Storage (i.e. you have to pay with money whenever you can).


It means at first you have to take the Stockpile money ... that's a fact.
Afterwards you can choose whether you will use influence discs or/and resources. ... ok fine !

But then I have an additional question:
If I choose to take a influence disc to reduce my upkeep and maybe then I have less upkeep than income. Do I get money back in my stockpile??

Example No1:

-7 Upkeep + 6 Income + 0 Stockpile Money = -1

-> I take 1 influence disc without loosing money planet the I got:

-5 Upkeep + 6 Income + 0 Stockpile Money = +1

=> Do I get this 1 money in my stockpile or have I stay at 0 ??

Example No2:

-10 Upkeep + 6 Income + 3 Stockpile Money = -1

-> First I have to take the 3 Stockpile Money to virtual raise my Income to 9, but that is not enough so I take 1 influence disc without loosing money planet the I got:

-7 Upkeep + 6 + 3 Income + 0 Stockpile Money = +2

=> Do I get this 2 money in my stockpile or have I stay at 0 ??
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Nat Brooks
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Civilization Upkeep, Step-by-Step:
1) If Income > Upkeep Owed, adjust cash upward. Done.
2) If Income = Upkeep Owed, Done.
3) If Income + Cash >= Upkeep Owed, adjust cash downward. Done.
4) If you have no sectors and fewer materials and science than would let you exchange them for cash, your civilization has Collapsed. You are done for the game. Done.
5) You are Bankrupt. Choose one or both of these:
5a) Exchange materials and science for cash in any amount, in your species's exchange ratio
5b) Remove influence and cubes from one sector, return cubes to appropriate tracks (warning: this may reduce your income!)
6) Go to step (1)

It is possible to go Bankrupt, and then to end on step one. You would be left with "change" from abandoning a sector.

Only when you are done with paying Civilization (money) Upkeep do you collect Materials and Science production.

Edit: added "return cubes to appropriate tracks" as suggested
Edit: added "Owed" to avoid confusion about whether "Upkeep" is a positive or negative number. Noted the point at which you are deemed Bankrupt.

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Jeff Thompson
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Bankrupt meanos you are out of the game. Do not use the term bankrupt when you mean just a deficit.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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natbrooks wrote:
1) If Income > Upkeep, adjust cash upward. Done.
2) If Income = Upkeep, Done.
3) If Income + Cash >= Upkeep, adjust cash downward. Done.
4) If you have no sectors and fewer materials and science than would let you exchange them for cash, your civilization has collapsed. You are done for the game. Done.
5) Choose one or both of these:
5a) Exchange materials and science for cash in any amount, in your species's exchange ratio
5b) Remove influence and cubes from one sector
6) Go to step (1)

It is possible to go bankrupt, and then to end on step one. You would be left with "change" from abandoning a sector.

Only when you are done with paying Civilization (money) Upkeep do you collect Materials and Science production.



This is the correct answer, most of the ones above it had serious flaws. I would add on step 5b the cubes removed go back on the track which means if they are orange or grey that you choose to place on the orange track (bad idea) they lower your income immediately, this can quickly cause a collapse if all your systems have one or more orange cubes... Also the rulebook calls it "bankruptcy?" when you don't have enough orange to pay your upkeep and then talks about spending other resources and removing disks, so he is right about that too.
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Nat Brooks
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Tompy wrote:
Bankrupt means you are out of the game. Do not use the term bankrupt when you mean just a deficit.

The rules of Eclipse use the term "Bankrupt" to mean not having sufficient income and cash to pay upkeep without either exchanging materials and science to get more money or returning influence disks to reduce upkeep costs. They use the term "Collapse" to mean unable to pay upkeep after exhausting all possibilities for reducing upkeep costs and increasing cash.

Being Bankrupt gives you the option to remove an influence disk without an action, which is otherwise not allowed.

Being in Collapse is terminal. You calculate your score and leave the game.

This is just a matter of terminology, so long as you play correctly. But using the term "Deficit" to mean "eligible to return influence disks" will confuse people, since the rules use that word to mean "having income lower than upkeep costs".

In Deficit: having to dip into savings to pay upkeep
In Bankruptcy: having to (allowed to) take extraordinary measures to pay upkeep
In Collapse: unable to meet upkeep obligations, and thus out of the game

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F K
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I think this topic may have been covered a couple other times on this forum. My understanding from both the rules and the other forum topics is this:

The below has been edited due to further input.

STEP 1) Check to see if Upkeep < MoneyProduction + MoneyStorage
If TRUE increase move MoneyStorage appropriately
If FALSE you MAY do STEP 2 OR move to STEP 3
STEP 2) Remove influence disks from systems decreasing upkeep
Recheck if Upkeep < MoneyProduction
If TRUE increase money storage marker
If FALSE either repeat STEP 2 or do STEP 3
STEP 3) Decrease money and/or other storage markers down the track

(I apologize if this is not at all clear )

This is supported in the rulebook on page 24.

"The money storage marker may not move below zero; if that WOULD happen, you must trade other resources OR give up control of some of your sectors by removing influence disks from those hexes and returning them to your influence track until the influence cost is small enough"

Also the example on the same page discusses this exact scenario.

My question after reading the rules is can you do both of the above options? Can you pull one influence disk, still be in debt then pay the remaining debt using the other resources? Seems to me that you can and that is how I've played.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the edit, let me know if this one works...
 
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Daniel Hammond
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kkohlm wrote:


STEP 1) Check to see if Upkeep < MoneyProduction
If TRUE increase money storage marker
If FALSE you MAY do STEP 2 OR move to STEP 3
STEP 2) Remove influence disks from systems decreasing upkeep
Recheck if Upkeep < MoneyProduction
If TRUE increase money storage marker
If FALSE either repeat STEP 2 or do STEP 3
STEP 3) Decrease money and/or other storage markers down the track


This is not right either.

Upkeep 10 income 8 Storage 3 orange

Step 1 False it is against the rules to go to Step 2 (as you have enough Orange in storage to pay)
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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kkohlm wrote:
My question after reading the rules is can you do both of the above options? Can you pull one influence disk, still be in debt then pay the remaining debt using the other resources? Seems to me that you can and that is how I've played.


Sure. Just make sure you are not adding your new materials / science from that turn until AFTER you've completed dealing with money.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Vanish wrote:
kkohlm wrote:
My question after reading the rules is can you do both of the above options? Can you pull one influence disk, still be in debt then pay the remaining debt using the other resources? Seems to me that you can and that is how I've played.


Sure. Just make sure you are not adding your new materials / science from that turn until AFTER you've completed dealing with money.


Not true because in his example he doesn't take into account his assets are his orange income + his orange storage.

If you are FORCED to remove disk(s) because you don't have enough orange (income+storage) and can't or choose not to spend other resources then after you recalculate (just like in Nat's example go back to 1) you could then, if you were still in the negative for orange, choose to spend resources rather than pull another disk (assuming you could afford to and chose to).
 
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F K
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At risk of turning this into an argument about semantics... gulp

I think the rule book is actually quite silent on their definition of the word 'bankruptcy'. They do use the word collapse to mean that your civilization has to remove ALL influence disks from the board and is thus out of the game. The only time I can see that the rule book even uses the term bankruptcy is as a section header that reads "Bankruptcy?".

It seems to me that this is certainly vague as they could be referring to the same effect as "collapse" with this term or the inability to pay upkeep. It seems to me as long as people are clear in their posts with what they mean by these terms people will not be confused.

Don't mean to slam anyone or their posts here, just a bit of clarification.
 
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F K
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Good point you guys I'll update my above post to include mention of the storage marker.
 
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Ben P.
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natbrooks wrote:
1) If Income > Upkeep, adjust cash upward. Done.


Good summary but your notation did confuse me at first. Since Upkeep has negative values, "Income > Upkeep" is almost always true. I think what you mean is "If Income + Upkeep > 0".
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Daniel Hammond
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Header: BANKRUPTCY? (bold and in all caps)
Paragraph one: Trading other resources to pay your debt and removing disks
Paragraph two: What happens if you can't pay and your last disk comes off, you are out of the game.
Paragraph three: Example.

There are no semantics to argue. That would be like arguing a section called MOVEMENT is about non-moving because it mentions in one of the sub-sections that moving is optional you don't have to move your ships.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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kkohlm wrote:

STEP 1) Check to see if Upkeep < MoneyProduction + MoneyStorage
If TRUE increase move MoneyStorage appropriately
If FALSE you MAY do STEP 2 OR move to STEP 3
STEP 2) Remove influence disks from systems decreasing upkeep
Recheck if Upkeep < MoneyProduction
If TRUE increase money storage marker
If FALSE either repeat STEP 2 or do STEP 3
STEP 3) Decrease money and/or other storage markers down the track

Still not right.

Step 2 doesn't have the + moneystorage after it
the If True could cause the money marker to move up or down

Step 3 doesn't recheck to make sure you paid all that you are supposed to.

Step 1 add to the True answer increase your science and materials and you are done
You should eliminate Step 2 recheck
change step 3 to Decrease other storage markers and increase orange
Step 4 return to Step 1
 
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F K
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I guess my thought was merely that the section header could refer to checking to see if your civilization collapses. The section is about bankruptcy it just that the bankruptcy is described in the second paragraph.

Kind of like this:

Did you go bankrupt?
Well, I don't have enough money to pay my upkeep...
But if I pull some systems I can avoid bankruptcy and collapse..
So I don't go bankrupt ... yeah

Not really a big deal as long as you are consistent within your game group.
 
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F K
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I guess I was thinking about it like this: (example time!)

My upkeep is at -7
My MoneyStorage is at 2
My MoneyProduction is at 4

I have to upkeep my civilization.

STEP 1: MoneyStorage + MoneyProduction is at 6, upkeep is at -7. I have to pay more then I have.

At this point I have a choice, I could just pay out of Science or Materials (via trade - STEP 3) OR I can go to STEP 2

STEP 2: I remove one influence disk from an empty sector. My influence is now -5. I recheck if my MoneyProduction > Upkeep. My MoneyProduction is 4, my upkeep is -5. I still have to pay, but I have 3 choices here.

Choice 1: Pay using MoneyStorage.
Choice 2: Pay using Science or Materials (via trade)
Choice 3: Remove another influence disk.

If I go with choice 3 then I would have to do STEP 2 again.

After all this is resolved I increase my Science and Materials according to production.

Another question I just came across that might be interesting is:

Can you use Science or Materials to pay your upkeep even if you have enough MoneyStorage to cover the debt?


Not sure if any of this helps or if I have moved into the 'making something more difficult then it needs to be' territory. It seems to me that in this game the easiest route is often the correct one, and that the rules are meant to be as intuitive as possible.
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Daniel Hammond
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cuazzel wrote:
natbrooks wrote:
1) If Income > Upkeep, adjust cash upward. Done.


Good summary but your notation did confuse me at first. Since Upkeep has negative values, "Income > Upkeep" is almost always true. I think what you mean is "If Income + Upkeep > 0".


With the exception of this quote which is a good and valid point. Nat had it down to a science.

You can trade resources at any time so sure you can convert your science and materials to money even if you don't need to to pay your expenses/increase your orange past what you need (can't see this as ever being a good idea though).

Edit: *sigh* I should have said Nat was right on the money...

I need to work on my material.
 
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Edit: I think I see what you're saying DH ... I mean, I KNOW how this game works.

I was just saying you can still trade after you've moved a disc back to your board if you still cannot afford your upkeep. It's not like you're blocked from trading once you've decided to abandon a system.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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kkohlm wrote:

STEP 2: I remove one influence disk from an empty sector. My influence is now -5. I recheck if my MoneyProduction > Upkeep. My MoneyProduction is 4, my upkeep is -5. I still have to pay, but I have 3 choices here.

Choice 1: Pay using MoneyStorage.
Choice 2: Pay using Science or Materials (via trade)
Choice 3: Remove another influence disk.


No, you cannot do this. Your MoneyStorage ALWAYS applies. Its not a choice to use it, you must use it. You cannot abandon if you have enough money storage to cover the difference in spending vs production.
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Dominic Lauke
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@Kevin

True words ... I don't want to make something more difficult then it needs to be ... and yes, Eclipse we should play on an intuitive way ...

The only thing I just want to figure out is if I have the duty to pay the difference between upkeep and income with money (ressources) or if it is allowed to take influence discs.

 
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