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Nightfall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Combat text problems and misc combat text questions rss

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Alexey Andronov
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Greetings.

After a day of having Coldest War fun, our gaming group came to a conclusion that combat text resolution mechanic is uncertain and probably flawed and needs clarification and probably a change.

Right now, the only official statement on combat text is in the faq (correct me if i'm wrong). About simultaneous activation it only says: "Should multiple players wish to activate Combat text at the same time, players take turns resolving 1 effect starting with the active player and moving around the table clockwise (passing once does not prevent you from playing later)."

1) Consider this situation:
P1's turn begins. He has several minions with 1 health in play. P2 has Unholy Resurrection (damage all by 1) in his deck, P1 has Gregor Dzhanic in his hand (heal all your by 1).

P1 is active player so his spell will resolve first, provided both wish to activate a combat effect at the same time. But he does not want to waste GD if enemy doesnt have UR in his hand. So, what happens?

It is to P2 advantage to ask P1 wether he wants to cast something or not, and if he passes, cast UR and destroy P1 minions (since P1 already passed and can only resolve his GD after UR takes effect). P1 can argue that after P2 has announced UR, he wants to simultaneoncely cast GD, and since he's active player, his card resolves first. Who is right? Does P2 has to announce what card he wants to use before P1 decides wether or not he uses his active player's right to go first with combat text. Or can P2 wait until P1 starts speaking about who will attack who, and announce that before attackers are declared, UR is played (and since P1 didnt announce any combat effect, he cannot use GD before UR is resolved).

2) Consider another situation:
P1's turn begins. He has some Banner 89's (can come in play in combat phase) in his hands and no minions in play. P2 has no minions in play. P2 has UR in his hand he wants to keep, and Power and Glory (2 dmg to minion) he can waste. If its only one Banner P1 has, P2 would like to use PG to take him out. If its more than one Banner in P1 hand, P2 would rather use UR to kill them all. P1, in this case, would aim to make P2 waste both PG and UR, or he may aim to not waste all his B89 in case P2 has UR. So it goes like this:

P1: B89 enters play
P2: Pass (waits for more B89 to enter)
P1: Pass (waits for P1 to use PG)
what happens now? Did "before declaring attackers" window just close and so P1 can add no more B89 to play before attackers are declared, meaning even if he'd do add them, they wouldnt participate in combat, and P2 can no longer use PG since that is only useable before attackers are declared? Or can P2 now use PG and then P1 will get to add B89 (after PG is used and first B89 is killed).

3) Consider another situation:
P1 turn begins and he has Bone Cruncher (5/4) in play and Kaspar Udunian (heal minion to full) in hand. P2 has 2x PG in hand.

P1: no combat effect announced
P2: PG targets BC

P1 says "okay" and turns BC to 2 current health. Now if P2 announces another PG, can P1 announce KU and use "if simultaneous, active player goes first" rule so that heal happens before damage is done?

4) At what point combat phase part is passed?
P1 turn begins. P2 has PG's in his hand. P1 doesnt want to remind P2 to use his PG's against him, so he doesnt want to ask "do you do anything before attackers are declared" openly. At which point can he say "i declare attackers" so that the "before attackers are declared" moment has passed and so P2 can no longer use PG? Can he say he waited 3 seconds and since no desire to use combat effect was shown, the combat has begun, or something in the line?

5) Am i allowed to talk to opponent before attackers are declared, delaying this moment? Are we allowed to share our intentions on further actions openly?

Like, P1 turn begins, and i am P2 with no minions, and there is P3 as well, can i say "will you agree to attack P3 this turn, or i'll use my PG's to kill your minions". He is of course not bound by his word if he says "i wont attack you", i dont use my PG, and then he declares he attacks me, but is even this converstaion allowed or not?

Or, can i suggest player X how should he use his minion damage abilities against player Y, so i can then deal more damage to them? Like, tell him to leave them all at 1hp, so i can UR them all to grave, or leave that 5/4 Bone Cruncher alone, since i'll Sophia Otrava (reduce to 1 hp) into PG him?

Or openly ask player about his hand (if i help you with two PG's on those minions who have 3 health each, do you have UR to take all them down?)

----

Overall, i feel combat effect system is a bit off now. Reverse resolution chain is de-facto standart for such effects, and it already used in card resolution already in Nightfall (chain phase), so why were combat effects written differently (without an ability to intercept one effect with another effect, and with a wierd "simultaneous action" rule)? Wouldnt it be better to just stick to MTG like rules, where players can add effects to a "chain", declaring targets immediately, and resolve them in reverse order?
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David Gregg
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Istrebitel wrote:
It is to P2 advantage to ask P1 wether he wants to cast something or not, and if he passes, cast UR and destroy P1 minions (since P1 already passed and can only resolve his GD after UR takes effect). P1 can argue that after P2 has announced UR, he wants to simultaneoncely cast GD, and since he's active player, his card resolves first. Who is right?

If P1 says he doesn't want to resolve anything, they have passed on their chance to play and it is now P2's turn to resolve something (doesn't matter if P1 regrets this after seeing what P2 chooses to play).

Istrebitel wrote:
Does P2 has to announce what card he wants to use before P1 decides wether or not he uses his active player's right to go first with combat text.

No. The point of the rule for simultaneous resolution is simply to provide a method should more than one player wish to resolve something. The rule does not require the player to announce "what" they wish to resolve. It is up to the player to discern whether or not they should pass their chance or not.

Istrebitel wrote:
Or can P2 wait until P1 starts speaking about who will attack who, and announce that before attackers are declared, UR is played (and since P1 didnt announce any combat effect, he cannot use GD before UR is resolved).

When crucial combat effects like these, it is best practice to ask players between combat steps if they wish to play anything as a fail safe. A simple "I'm about to declare attackers, any objections?" is fine.

Istrebitel wrote:
what happens now? Did "before declaring attackers" window just close and so P1 can add no more B89 to play before attackers are declared, meaning even if he'd do add them, they wouldnt participate in combat, and P2 can no longer use PG since that is only useable before attackers are declared? Or can P2 now use PG and then P1 will get to add B89 (after PG is used and first B89 is killed).

Everyone has passed, so active player can simply ask if anyone wishes to play further before declaring attackers.


Istrebitel wrote:
P1 says "okay" and turns BC to 2 current health. Now if P2 announces another PG, can P1 announce KU and use "if simultaneous, active player goes first" rule so that heal happens before damage is done?

No, P1 must either activate their effect now or pass for P2 to go again. Waiting for someone to announce their card and then saying something like "oh, well in that case I want to activate something at the same time" doesn't cut it. Active player can ask a single time "who all might want to resolve stuff before I declare attackers" and if more than 1 person speaks up, starting going around the table until everyone is done.

Istrebitel wrote:
4) At what point combat phase part is passed?
P1 turn begins. P2 has PG's in his hand. P1 doesnt want to remind P2 to use his PG's against him, so he doesnt want to ask "do you do anything before attackers are declared" openly. At which point can he say "i declare attackers" so that the "before attackers are declared" moment has passed and so P2 can no longer use PG? Can he say he waited 3 seconds and since no desire to use combat effect was shown, the combat has begun, or something in the line?

Doesn't matter if P1 wants to ask or not, it's part of the game and so should be asked each round whenever these cards have been drafted. Attempting to skip steps for your own advantage is being a poor sport.

Istrebitel wrote:
5) Am i allowed to talk to opponent before attackers are declared, delaying this moment? Are we allowed to share our intentions on further actions openly?

Unless you want to risk giving away information, the active player should simply ask if anyone wants to play and then move on (must faster this way as well).

Istrebitel wrote:
Like, P1 turn begins, and i am P2 with no minions, and there is P3 as well, can i say "will you agree to attack P3 this turn, or i'll use my PG's to kill your minions". He is of course not bound by his word if he says "i wont attack you", i dont use my PG, and then he declares he attacks me, but is even this converstaion allowed or not?

Or, can i suggest player X how should he use his minion damage abilities against player Y, so i can then deal more damage to them? Like, tell him to leave them all at 1hp, so i can UR them all to grave, or leave that 5/4 Bone Cruncher alone, since i'll Sophia Otrava (reduce to 1 hp) into PG him?

Or openly ask player about his hand (if i help you with two PG's on those minions who have 3 health each, do you have UR to take all them down?)

These types of political talks are fine, but you should still ask if anyone wants to use effects before combat steps and follow through normally like mentioned above (which also gives the players to prove their alliances, or break them). Just keep in mind that no matter what anyone claims to have in their hand or be willing to do, there's no way to know if they're being honest until it actually comes down to resolving things.
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Alexey Andronov
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So, confirm please if i understood you correctly:

1) P1 turn begins. He asks "Declaring attackers, any objections?"
By saying this, he just forfeited his right to use combat text first, so if in response to this P2 announces he wants to resolve combat text, his combat text will be resolved before P1's (active player's) combat text, even if after P2 announced that P1 says "yeah i wanna use combat text on my card too". Following Case 1, if P1 didnt use Gregor immediately before asking if anyone wants to do something before attacker declaration, and someone used Unholy Ressurection, P1 minions are toast?

2) P1 is allowed to make a "interest check" - ask "Declaring attackers, any objections?", everyone ignores or say "go ahead", and then P1 still has a choice - activate some combat text, or start declaring. Right?

3) Can a player change his desicion on wether or not to activate combat text?

P1 has GD (heal all by 1) and B89 (come into play during combat as 2/1) in hand, some minions with 1 health in play and his turn begins, P2 has UR (damage all by 1). P1 says that he wants to activate combat text. Now, if P1 activates B89, P2 would like to UR all P1 minions before he can heal them. If P1 activates GD, P2 would not want to waste UR anymore. Can P2, after he sees that P1 activated GD, say "okay then i wont activate mine", so it goes like

P1: I want to activate combat text
P2: I want too
P3: Pass
P1: Activate GD, heal all my minions
Can P2 now say "i dont want to activate my combat text card anymore"?

4) Can player change what card he wishes to activate? Since we do not announce what card to activate, can it go like this:

P1 turn begins and he has some 1 health minions, has GD and B89 in hand. P2 has UR and PG.

P1: I want to activate combat text (will be GD, but P2 thinks it will be B89 as well)
P2: I want too (thinks about using UR to kill all P1 minions with new B89 that will come out)
P1: GD, healed all minions by 1
P2: (now wants to use PG instead)

Since P2 didnt announce what he will be activating, can he now change his mind and use PG instead of UR?

In other words, when you announce that you are willing to activate combat text, do you set aside the card you'll activate w/o showing it to others, or do you just announce your will, and at the time its your turn, chose and play a card?

5) Situation:

P1 has B89 in hand and KU (heal to full) in hand, his turn begins, P2 has PG in hand.

P1: I want to activate combat text
P2: Go ahead (pass)
P1: B89
Can P2 now activate PG and kill B89, before P1 gets a chance to activate KU?

Meaning, ruleswise, is it defined like this:
- Everyone announce their wish to activate combat text
- Everyone who announced get to do it, eveyrone who passed doesnt
- Everyone again get to announce their wish to activate combat text

or some other way?
 
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David Gregg
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Here's a complete walk-through:

Step 1
P1 is active player. They may either:
1) Resolve a combat effect. Go to Step 2.
2) Ask if anyone else wishes to resolve one before declaring attackers. Go to Step 3.

Step 2
If P1 resolves a combat effect, they should give each player at the table a chance to pass or resolve something. Go back to Step 1.

Step 3
At this point, one of these will happen:
1) Someone will speak up. Go to Step 4.
2) No one will want to play anything. Declare attackers.

Step 4
Beginning with P2, give everyone a chance to activate a combat effect (notice that P1 already had their chance in Step 1). Go to Step 1.

So as you can see, being active player gives the advantage of playing first, but at the cost of having less information about what others wish to play (this keeps things balanced).
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Alexey Andronov
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That clarifies and changes alot.

So, again, if i understand correctly:

1) If P1, when his turn begins, says "anything before i declare attackers?" and people say "go ahead", he cannot activate any "before attackers" combat text anymore. Window to use combat effects has closed.

2) If P1 announced an effect, players announce their will to do something or pass in the order of play, not simultaneoncely, and so for example P3 can choose wether to announce something or not based on what P1 and P2 have announced, discarded and resolved. P2 doesnt know wether P3 will resolve something or not when its his chance to pass or resolve something.

3) If P1 asked "anything before i declare attackers?" however, someone else can speak up and state that he wants to do a combat effect, but if he does, everybody except P1 get to do a combat effect!

So, it goes like:

P1: Can i declare attackers?
*pause*
P3: Okay, i want to resolve combat effect before attackers are declared
P2: Oh, then i will resolve mine too, and i will do it before yours, since i have the right to go first after P1.
P2: Discards card, resolves combat effect

Is P3 bound to resolve his combat effect in this situation, after he gets head bumped by P2 and sees what P2 has resolved? Is he bound to resolve that exact effect he wanted to, or can he resolve something different? Or can he say he doesnt want to resolve anything anymore after P2's effect?
 
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David Gregg
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To clarify, when active player asks if anyone wants to resolve an effect, it should go around the table, effectively letting each player pass, so if P3 wants to use something, P1 and P2 have already passed, letting P3 go ahead and player their card. Normally all this is done very quickly (I just look at each player around the table for roughly a second and then move on).
 
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Alexey Andronov
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Yeah of course normally this goes quickly, but when a lot of combat effects start to pile, up and their order matters ALOT (like with Kaspars, Banners, Power and Glories, Unholy Resurrections and Gregors), you need a ruleset to abide to, so that noone feels he was cheated or trolled into a disadvantage.

So, there is no simultaneous announcing of a desire to resolve combat effects after all, but instead every window (before attackers, before defenders, before damage, at the end) you just take turns resolving effects or passing until everyone starting from P1 to last player passes, and thats when window closes and combat phase advances further.

And in terms of fair and non-strict play, if P1 asked wether or not someone wants to do something before he declares attackers, and due pause was given, and then P3 spoke up that he wants to resolve a combat effect, then he resolves it first, P4 after him, then P5, P1, and only then P2, even if P2 said "yeah i want too" immediately after P3 announced that he wants to resolve a combat effect.
 
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